Friday, June 19, 2009

Re: [BLUG] usability

These debates sound like many political debates to me, where people
debate their political philosophies of unobtrusive government, the free
market, the philosophy behind habeous corpeous (sp?!) etc. to the point
where any discussion of stuff that seems to threaten whatever it is that
you believe in philosophically is a complete non-starter.

This is true for computing and politics as well, I think, and that is at
some point it makes logical sense to put aside your philosophy and
accept some imperfection from time to time when you find something that
actually works. For instance, I wish we could agree upon what we ought
to do with the economy based on the actual math and sound, sober,
academically sound, purely rational economic theory rather than letting
our feelings and philosophical viewpoints cloud things as much as they
often seem to.

Don't get me wrong, philosophy definitely has its place, but it needs to
be kept in check. Returning to computing, I spend most of my time web
programming and working on my servers. I'm perfectly willing to cave on
my philosophical ideas of computing when it comes to what I use on the
desktop (OS X), because frankly I don't really want to spend time
tinkering with my desktop because that deters me from what I really want
to do (and make money doing). I use OS X because it just works for me,
more so than anything else. Without trying to sound condescending, I
don't know why more people aren't more like this and less religious and
philosophical when it comes to their computing.

I don't really connect with many Mac users though. I've encountered Mac
users that insist on using OS X apps that are perfect OS X citizens and
do everything "the Mac way". For instance, I use Postbox over OS X Mail
because frankly OS X Mail is a piece of shit IMAP client. This used to
manifest as a problem in bogging my computer down and making it
inconvenient for me to do some things (I won't bore you with the
details). It would be very, very nice if Postbox supported the OS X
Dictionary, Keychain, Address Book (I think it is partial support
there), but I don't see the logic in abandoning what works (Postbox) for
something that is philosophically in tune with the ideals of what a GUI
should be like in OS X.

Steven Black wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Barry Schatz wrote:
>> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
>> [...]
>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
>> -Linus
>> [...]
>
> This is a real gem.
>
> |"Usability" is an issue only if you can do something at all. But if you
> |can't do the thing at all, it's pointless to talk about usability: the
> |thing is BY DEFINITION not usable if it cannot be used for a specific
> |task.
> |
> |[...]
> |
> |There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For
> |example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I
> |want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and
> |even simpler printer needs.
> |
> |So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me
> |in your "majority".
> |
> |But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part
> |of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that
> |the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually
> |overlook.
> |
> |For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my
> |mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get
> |really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your
> |majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority
> |of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
> |
> |In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It
> |can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in
> |general.
>
> Oh, it is a bit ranty, but also delicious.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] usability (was: case insensitivity and more)

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Barry Schatz wrote:
> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
> [...]
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
> -Linus
> [...]

This is a real gem.

|"Usability" is an issue only if you can do something at all. But if you
|can't do the thing at all, it's pointless to talk about usability: the
|thing is BY DEFINITION not usable if it cannot be used for a specific
|task.
|
|[...]
|
|There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For
|example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I
|want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and
|even simpler printer needs.
|
|So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me
|in your "majority".
|
|But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part
|of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that
|the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually
|overlook.
|
|For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my
|mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get
|really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your
|majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority
|of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
|
|In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It
|can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in
|general.

Oh, it is a bit ranty, but also delicious.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> It's not that these features are deal-breaker important to him, per
> se. However, their presence indicates the language was designed from
> the ground up with the same priorities he has, and their absence
> indicates that the language was not designed with his same priorities
> in mind.
>

Thank you, as you hit the nail on head. I want to use a system that
goes along with the way that I think. If I didn't mind changing my idea
of "the right way" to do things I would just be a sheeple and use
Windows instead of Linux. The reality of it is that I do have an
opinion of "the right way" to do things and OSX violates that opinion
too much for me to want to use it.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes
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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Jordan Thevenow-Harrison<jtth@jtth.net> wrote:
> Not to derail the thread or anything, but do this to enable case sensitivity
> (which can cause problems if an app developer is lazy or did something by
> hand that's usually done by xcode, and changed some capitalization).
> 1. Back up to time machine.
> 2. Use the Leopard install disk to reformat your drive to HFS+ Case
> Sensitive
> 3. Use the Restore from Time Machine backup option from (one of the) menubar
> (items) on the Leopard install disk.
>
> There's an app that's $50 that does it in place, or so it purports to, but I
> wouldn't trust it. There's no other way to do it.
> --
> Jordan Thevenow-Harrison
> jtth@jtth.net

I kind of think that Scott's original complaint wasn't specifically
that he needs that feature and if he could have it he would be sold on
OSX.

It sounded more like how my astro-physicist friend criticizes
programming languages:

"Do you need more than a single character to do exponents? Do you have
to import a library before you can do sin, cos, and tan? Then it's not
for me."

It's not that these features are deal-breaker important to him, per
se. However, their presence indicates the language was designed from
the ground up with the same priorities he has, and their absence
indicates that the language was not designed with his same priorities
in mind.

Just a thought.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Not to derail the thread or anything, but do this to enable case
sensitivity (which can cause problems if an app developer is lazy or
did something by hand that's usually done by xcode, and changed some
capitalization).
1. Back up to time machine.
2. Use the Leopard install disk to reformat your drive to HFS+ Case
Sensitive
3. Use the Restore from Time Machine backup option from (one of the)
menubar (items) on the Leopard install disk.

There's an app that's $50 that does it in place, or so it purports to,
but I wouldn't trust it. There's no other way to do it.
--
Jordan Thevenow-Harrison
jtth@jtth.net

On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Barry Schatz wrote:

> Mark Krenz wrote:
>> I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
>> some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
>> with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".
>>
>> As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
>> and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
>> people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that
>> pesky
>> http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Pros: Shiny.
>>
>> Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
>> name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.
>>
>>
> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
>
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001588.html
> -Linus (the famous "switch to KDE" post)
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001592.html
> -Linus
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
> -Linus
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001596.html
> -Tim Witham
>
> -Barry
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Mark Krenz wrote:
> I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
> some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
> with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".
>
> As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
> and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
> people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that pesky
> http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Pros: Shiny.
>
> Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
> name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.
>
>
And in that thread of usability-versus-users:

https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001588.html
-Linus (the famous "switch to KDE" post)
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001592.html
-Linus
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
-Linus
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001596.html
-Tim Witham

-Barry
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Re: [BLUG] Mac owner

I know I'm addressing an older post, but my comments appear more
relevant this way.

Scott Blaydes wrote:
> The damn thing wasn't case sensitive. In my mind file, File, and FiLe
> are all referring to different things, but not in OSX. This is one
> bastardization of FreeBSD (that Apple used to model OSX/Darwin off of)
> that I can not accept. Once I found this problem I couldn't take the OS
> seriously anymore, it was just a toy.
>
> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>
>
I go back and forth on case sensitivity.

If you forced all your filenames (and everything is a file in Unix) to
uppercase, would you have any name collisions? Not likely. It's asking
for trouble when you have a file and a directory separated by letter
case because it's such a subtle difference when typing. If you didn't
hold the shift key at the right instant, you accidentally deleted the
wrong thing. If you have two files named File.txt and file.txt, there is
something wrong.

But then again, it matters to both preserve case sensitivity and to keep
the filename code simple. The filesystem regards 'A' and 'a' as
different characters because they have different byte, ascii and UTF
codes. Treating them the same while preserving identity introduces
unneeded complexity to the filesystem code when most of us would rather
work around the issue and have simpler, faster filesystem operations.
Moreover, case sensitivity allows you to describe file type more
succinctly. For example, I leave the first letter of regular filenames
lowercase but I capitalize the first letter of directory names.
Depending on the circumstances, I'll put a filename in all uppercase to
convey importance. I also use capital letters to show word boundaries to
clear up ambiguities (there's a tech help site with a hyphen in the url
so you know they don't perform gender reassignment surgery).

In the end, I don't care significantly one way or the other. I'll use
whatever is the standard on the system I'm using. If you care enough to
think less of a system over such a detail, then this is what I think of
you: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/mundane-name

-Barry
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