Mark
--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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1. Graphics and sounds allow the developer to bypass some, if not all of
the initial commitment required in sinking a new user in to a game.
2. Over-exposure to products relying on graphics and sound to just
bypass the initial commitment may lead to people unable to put in the
effort for that initial commitment.
Of course, that is just my oppinion of the matter. I don't have any
scientific research to back it up. It does seem a reasonable hypothesis,
though.
An interesting corollary to explore would be whether folks who have
a reduced ability to make a mental commitment to games not involving
graphics and sound (and presumably also a reduced ability to enjoy
books) also have a reduced ability to get in to games of types they are
not already familiar with.
Cheers,
Steven Black
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 03:04:30PM -0400, Steven Black wrote:
> It boils down to the Barney problem. Barney the Dinosaur has/had
> segments on the show where they "imagine" things. To engage the broadest
> set of young minds, this is not left to the imagination. This had the
> side-effect of leaving some young children believing that they were
> incapable of imagining things, as it didn't work the same as it did
> for Barney.
>
> To imagine things or to play more abstract games it takes up front
> effort to begin. You need to make a commitment to the process before it
> can become enjoyable.
>
> If you reach a point in a book where you "just never could really
> get in to it" it is a sign that you were unable to make that initial
> commitment. Even a childhood game like "the floor is lava" requires
> first the commitment to put your mind in a place where you can't touch
> the floor.
>
> The use of graphics and sounds bypasses the need for that up-front
> commitment. You don't need to pretend that the floor is lava, if it
> actually looks like lava. You don't need to visualize and imagine
> what is going on in a book, if it is spelled out for you in picture
> and sound.
>
> This also clarifies why so many games use a similar style of play.
> Pretty much any FPS plays like any other FPS. This means there is no
> learning curve for new games once you've played one. They've completely
> bypassed any up-front commitment required to learn or get in to a game.
>
> Compare this even to the old Atari 2600 games. While they almost all
> had a joystick, and you didn't really need to read instructions (like
> you do for a more complex game), the game play varied significantly, to
> the point where someone would at least need to poke around for a bit
> (and possibly lose their first game) before they would understand the
> controls. Without a commitment to experiment and possibly lose the first
> game, they could never get in to it and really enjoy it.
--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E
Well, Warzone 2100 seems to have a decent storyline... of course, it
started out as a commercial game, so that probably helped...
> Oh, yeah. It's like with Audiobooks; some companies do them well, some
> not so much.
>
> I've found, with audiobooks, that a good book read badly is just as
> bad (if not worse) than a bad book read well.
Anyone who doesn't believe this should check out Librivox.org. Some of
the readers there are really good. Others, well, let's just say the
site accepts any accent, and couple that with the fact that even native
speakers sometimes just can't read aloud well...
> > Yeah, it can add to the game. I admit that. Some games do really well
> > with the added flash. Some of the horror console games, in particular,
> > really come off creepy due to their flash.
>
> Good example! Doom has always given me the willies, and the 3-D flash
> in Doom 3 made it exponentially creepier than Doom 2.
Oh, I don't think the Doom games even come close to the Silent Hill
games. I've only played Silent Hill 2, and I didn't really get far in
that, but it is heavily atmospheric. You start off in a nearly empty
town and instead of instantly seeing all these monsters, you have to
hunt in the fog knowing that you will encounter some crazy stuff, but
not knowing when or what it will be...
I've known people who have had policies of not playing Silent Hill games
while alone, as if they do they just get too creeped out. This sort of
visceral terror is hard to do in any medium, but a creepy sound track
goes a long way. Certainly with a bad sound track, an otherwise creepy
game can just become campy.
> > My gripe is just that it would be a lot easier to focus on game play,
> > plot, and design if people stopped focusing so exclusively on the
> > pictures and audio.
>
> Perhaps the "problem" is that pictures and audio are sexier, more
> immediately gratifying, and more easily accessible than engaging
> storylines and well-balanced gameplay.
It boils down to the Barney problem. Barney the Dinosaur has/had
segments on the show where they "imagine" things. To engage the broadest
set of young minds, this is not left to the imagination. This had the
side-effect of leaving some young children believing that they were
incapable of imagining things, as it didn't work the same as it did
for Barney.
To imagine things or to play more abstract games it takes up front
effort to begin. You need to make a commitment to the process before it
can become enjoyable.
If you reach a point in a book where you "just never could really
get in to it" it is a sign that you were unable to make that initial
commitment. Even a childhood game like "the floor is lava" requires
first the commitment to put your mind in a place where you can't touch
the floor.
The use of graphics and sounds bypasses the need for that up-front
commitment. You don't need to pretend that the floor is lava, if it
actually looks like lava. You don't need to visualize and imagine
what is going on in a book, if it is spelled out for you in picture
and sound.
This also clarifies why so many games use a similar style of play.
Pretty much any FPS plays like any other FPS. This means there is no
learning curve for new games once you've played one. They've completely
bypassed any up-front commitment required to learn or get in to a game.
Compare this even to the old Atari 2600 games. While they almost all
had a joystick, and you didn't really need to read instructions (like
you do for a more complex game), the game play varied significantly, to
the point where someone would at least need to poke around for a bit
(and possibly lose their first game) before they would understand the
controls. Without a commitment to experiment and possibly lose the first
game, they could never get in to it and really enjoy it.
> So, I mean, as a teacher, I have to value that quality of the flash.
> My kids learn better if they're interested, even if what hooks the
> interest up front is *really* just window dressing.
Oh, I fully admit it. Kids like games, and the ability to make something
resembling a game is enough to draw them in.
I plan to teach my daughter Python for her first computer language.
However, one of the first areas I'll focus on will be PyGame.
The logic is fairly straight-forward. I can say "Most modern games are
made by large teams of developers -- sometimes more people than needed
to make a movie. Check out the games at PyGame.org. Those games are
frequently made by individuals. This means that you could make a game
like those games by yourself."
To enjoy a traditional roguelike game, a person needs to enjoy abstract
texture and color more than visual textures and colors. You need to
enjoy the vast number of objects and monsters more than just pretty
pictures of objects and monsters. You need to enjoy the range of
movements and commands available, more than just going places and
shooting things. Ultimately, it is a richer world, however you need to
value that sort of richness.
Assuming my daughter doesn't have cognitive disabilities, I fully expect
that eventually she will become interested in roguelike games. However,
before that time I'll point her at ways to do things with pictures and
sounds.
> For instance, I'll start each turn with a good high-level survey of my
> empire (which is sometimes so big I can't see it all for the curvature
> of the planet, thousands of land squares on the screen), as the turn
> progresses I usually find myself zooming in to inspect continents or
> regions (hundreds of land squares on the screen) and, in wartime, it's
> not unusual for me to be zoomed in on an area smaller than a
> chessboard, contemplating my next move.
You know, I never used that feature. I just didn't play it that way.
In fact, I didn't know it was possible.
No wonder I didn't understand the use of 3D. :)
--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E
-Barry
Barry Schatz wrote:
> Saurbraten, Warzone 2100, Teeworlds, and BZFlag.
>
> The first is your stadard FPS, the second is a very involved RTS, the third is
> a very cute 2D multiplayer brawler, and the last is the classic tank battle
> game. All of these are on the liveDVD
>
> I'd like to get some of the RTS folk together for another round of Warzone.
> I'm not an RTS guy normally, but that game is really fun! It's also in the
> Debian repos and has a single player campaign.
>
> -Barry
>
> On Monday 20 April 2009 07:14:42 Simón Ruiz wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:52 AM, Charles Willis <cdwillisrules@gmail.com>
>>
> wrote:
>
>>> I just started lurking on the mailing list recently and wish I could have
>>> made it to the LAN party. What games were you guys playing?
>>>
>>> - CD
>>>
>> Yeah, no doubt, what are your impressions of all the games you played?
>>
>> What were the favorites?
>>
>> Simón
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>
>
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And I wouldn't have stomped you so badly if you had just accepted an
alliance. >:)
>> The first is your stadard FPS, the second is a very involved RTS,
>> the third is a very cute 2D multiplayer brawler, and the last is the
>> classic tank battle game. All of these are on the liveDVD
>>
>
> The Live DVD really made it nice. In addition to the 'all the games are
> the same version, so there's no chance of compatibility issue' aspect,
> there was also the 'WTF? I think it just killed the machine. But, it is
> just a DVD, so a quick reset will damage nothing.'
>
> Linux is nice and stable. I'm not saying otherwise. But any full-screen
> games that grabs all the input can sometimes leave you high and dry.
>
>
>> I'd like to get some of the RTS folk together for another round of Warzone.
>> I'm not an RTS guy normally, but that game is really fun! It's also in the
>> Debian repos and has a single player campaign.
>>
>
> It may be the incentive I needed to send my laptop out for repairs. It
> will work on this computer, but I can't play it for long due to the
> heat issue.
>
> I've enjoyed playing StarCraft in the past, and was definitely familiar
> with that sort of RTS. (Actually, I think of the genre, I've *only* ever
> played StarCraft.)
>
> For those unfamiliar with Warzone 2100 here's how it varies from some
> other RTS games you may be familiar with:
>
> * It uses 3D, the game play doesn't appear to lean on it too heavily, but
> it allows you to do things like zoom in and out, and rotate the map as
> you wish for a better view. (When you win there are fireworks.)
> * There is only one kind of resource.
> * There is not a fixed type of unit: Most of the units are designed before
> they are built. This includes body type, wheels and guns (or tools).
> * There is only a single race. (The fact that there is only one race is
> totally moot when you can build totally different types of units.)
>
>
The 3D feels a bit like Warcraft 3. The gameplay and maps remind me of
Command and Conquer. The unit design dynamic reminded me of Mech
Commander. There's some StarCraft and Ground Control in there, but I'm
not sure where. The tech tree is much, much richer, so you can't just
turtle yourself for hours and win with a carrier rush. Designing your
own units is a critical part of the game and makes it possible for two
players of the same "race" to have very different armies.
Maybe next time we can get a round of Wesnoth going. I've never played
before, but I hear good things.
-Barry
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Barry was wiping the floor with folks in most of the games, too.
> The first is your stadard FPS, the second is a very involved RTS,
> the third is a very cute 2D multiplayer brawler, and the last is the
> classic tank battle game. All of these are on the liveDVD
The Live DVD really made it nice. In addition to the 'all the games are
the same version, so there's no chance of compatibility issue' aspect,
there was also the 'WTF? I think it just killed the machine. But, it is
just a DVD, so a quick reset will damage nothing.'
Linux is nice and stable. I'm not saying otherwise. But any full-screen
games that grabs all the input can sometimes leave you high and dry.
> I'd like to get some of the RTS folk together for another round of Warzone.
> I'm not an RTS guy normally, but that game is really fun! It's also in the
> Debian repos and has a single player campaign.
It may be the incentive I needed to send my laptop out for repairs. It
will work on this computer, but I can't play it for long due to the
heat issue.
I've enjoyed playing StarCraft in the past, and was definitely familiar
with that sort of RTS. (Actually, I think of the genre, I've *only* ever
played StarCraft.)
For those unfamiliar with Warzone 2100 here's how it varies from some
other RTS games you may be familiar with:
* It uses 3D, the game play doesn't appear to lean on it too heavily, but
it allows you to do things like zoom in and out, and rotate the map as
you wish for a better view. (When you win there are fireworks.)
* There is only one kind of resource.
* There is not a fixed type of unit: Most of the units are designed before
they are built. This includes body type, wheels and guns (or tools).
* There is only a single race. (The fact that there is only one race is
totally moot when you can build totally different types of units.)
--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E
The first is your stadard FPS, the second is a very involved RTS, the third is
a very cute 2D multiplayer brawler, and the last is the classic tank battle
game. All of these are on the liveDVD
I'd like to get some of the RTS folk together for another round of Warzone.
I'm not an RTS guy normally, but that game is really fun! It's also in the
Debian repos and has a single player campaign.
-Barry
On Monday 20 April 2009 07:14:42 Simón Ruiz wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:52 AM, Charles Willis <cdwillisrules@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > I just started lurking on the mailing list recently and wish I could have
> > made it to the LAN party. What games were you guys playing?
> >
> > - CD
>
> Yeah, no doubt, what are your impressions of all the games you played?
>
> What were the favorites?
>
> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
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Yeah, no doubt, what are your impressions of all the games you played?
What were the favorites?
Simón
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