Friday, June 19, 2009

Re: [BLUG] usability

These debates sound like many political debates to me, where people
debate their political philosophies of unobtrusive government, the free
market, the philosophy behind habeous corpeous (sp?!) etc. to the point
where any discussion of stuff that seems to threaten whatever it is that
you believe in philosophically is a complete non-starter.

This is true for computing and politics as well, I think, and that is at
some point it makes logical sense to put aside your philosophy and
accept some imperfection from time to time when you find something that
actually works. For instance, I wish we could agree upon what we ought
to do with the economy based on the actual math and sound, sober,
academically sound, purely rational economic theory rather than letting
our feelings and philosophical viewpoints cloud things as much as they
often seem to.

Don't get me wrong, philosophy definitely has its place, but it needs to
be kept in check. Returning to computing, I spend most of my time web
programming and working on my servers. I'm perfectly willing to cave on
my philosophical ideas of computing when it comes to what I use on the
desktop (OS X), because frankly I don't really want to spend time
tinkering with my desktop because that deters me from what I really want
to do (and make money doing). I use OS X because it just works for me,
more so than anything else. Without trying to sound condescending, I
don't know why more people aren't more like this and less religious and
philosophical when it comes to their computing.

I don't really connect with many Mac users though. I've encountered Mac
users that insist on using OS X apps that are perfect OS X citizens and
do everything "the Mac way". For instance, I use Postbox over OS X Mail
because frankly OS X Mail is a piece of shit IMAP client. This used to
manifest as a problem in bogging my computer down and making it
inconvenient for me to do some things (I won't bore you with the
details). It would be very, very nice if Postbox supported the OS X
Dictionary, Keychain, Address Book (I think it is partial support
there), but I don't see the logic in abandoning what works (Postbox) for
something that is philosophically in tune with the ideals of what a GUI
should be like in OS X.

Steven Black wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Barry Schatz wrote:
>> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
>> [...]
>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
>> -Linus
>> [...]
>
> This is a real gem.
>
> |"Usability" is an issue only if you can do something at all. But if you
> |can't do the thing at all, it's pointless to talk about usability: the
> |thing is BY DEFINITION not usable if it cannot be used for a specific
> |task.
> |
> |[...]
> |
> |There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For
> |example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I
> |want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and
> |even simpler printer needs.
> |
> |So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me
> |in your "majority".
> |
> |But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part
> |of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that
> |the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually
> |overlook.
> |
> |For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my
> |mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get
> |really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your
> |majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority
> |of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
> |
> |In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It
> |can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in
> |general.
>
> Oh, it is a bit ranty, but also delicious.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] usability (was: case insensitivity and more)

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Barry Schatz wrote:
> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
> [...]
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
> -Linus
> [...]

This is a real gem.

|"Usability" is an issue only if you can do something at all. But if you
|can't do the thing at all, it's pointless to talk about usability: the
|thing is BY DEFINITION not usable if it cannot be used for a specific
|task.
|
|[...]
|
|There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For
|example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I
|want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and
|even simpler printer needs.
|
|So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me
|in your "majority".
|
|But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part
|of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that
|the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually
|overlook.
|
|For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my
|mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get
|really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your
|majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority
|of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
|
|In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It
|can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in
|general.

Oh, it is a bit ranty, but also delicious.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> It's not that these features are deal-breaker important to him, per
> se. However, their presence indicates the language was designed from
> the ground up with the same priorities he has, and their absence
> indicates that the language was not designed with his same priorities
> in mind.
>

Thank you, as you hit the nail on head. I want to use a system that
goes along with the way that I think. If I didn't mind changing my idea
of "the right way" to do things I would just be a sheeple and use
Windows instead of Linux. The reality of it is that I do have an
opinion of "the right way" to do things and OSX violates that opinion
too much for me to want to use it.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Jordan Thevenow-Harrison<jtth@jtth.net> wrote:
> Not to derail the thread or anything, but do this to enable case sensitivity
> (which can cause problems if an app developer is lazy or did something by
> hand that's usually done by xcode, and changed some capitalization).
> 1. Back up to time machine.
> 2. Use the Leopard install disk to reformat your drive to HFS+ Case
> Sensitive
> 3. Use the Restore from Time Machine backup option from (one of the) menubar
> (items) on the Leopard install disk.
>
> There's an app that's $50 that does it in place, or so it purports to, but I
> wouldn't trust it. There's no other way to do it.
> --
> Jordan Thevenow-Harrison
> jtth@jtth.net

I kind of think that Scott's original complaint wasn't specifically
that he needs that feature and if he could have it he would be sold on
OSX.

It sounded more like how my astro-physicist friend criticizes
programming languages:

"Do you need more than a single character to do exponents? Do you have
to import a library before you can do sin, cos, and tan? Then it's not
for me."

It's not that these features are deal-breaker important to him, per
se. However, their presence indicates the language was designed from
the ground up with the same priorities he has, and their absence
indicates that the language was not designed with his same priorities
in mind.

Just a thought.

Simón

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Not to derail the thread or anything, but do this to enable case
sensitivity (which can cause problems if an app developer is lazy or
did something by hand that's usually done by xcode, and changed some
capitalization).
1. Back up to time machine.
2. Use the Leopard install disk to reformat your drive to HFS+ Case
Sensitive
3. Use the Restore from Time Machine backup option from (one of the)
menubar (items) on the Leopard install disk.

There's an app that's $50 that does it in place, or so it purports to,
but I wouldn't trust it. There's no other way to do it.
--
Jordan Thevenow-Harrison
jtth@jtth.net

On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Barry Schatz wrote:

> Mark Krenz wrote:
>> I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
>> some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
>> with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".
>>
>> As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
>> and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
>> people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that
>> pesky
>> http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Pros: Shiny.
>>
>> Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
>> name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.
>>
>>
> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
>
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001588.html
> -Linus (the famous "switch to KDE" post)
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001592.html
> -Linus
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
> -Linus
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001596.html
> -Tim Witham
>
> -Barry
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Mark Krenz wrote:
> I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
> some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
> with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".
>
> As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
> and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
> people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that pesky
> http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Pros: Shiny.
>
> Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
> name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.
>
>
And in that thread of usability-versus-users:

https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001588.html
-Linus (the famous "switch to KDE" post)
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001592.html
-Linus
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
-Linus
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001596.html
-Tim Witham

-Barry
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Mac owner

I know I'm addressing an older post, but my comments appear more
relevant this way.

Scott Blaydes wrote:
> The damn thing wasn't case sensitive. In my mind file, File, and FiLe
> are all referring to different things, but not in OSX. This is one
> bastardization of FreeBSD (that Apple used to model OSX/Darwin off of)
> that I can not accept. Once I found this problem I couldn't take the OS
> seriously anymore, it was just a toy.
>
> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>
>
I go back and forth on case sensitivity.

If you forced all your filenames (and everything is a file in Unix) to
uppercase, would you have any name collisions? Not likely. It's asking
for trouble when you have a file and a directory separated by letter
case because it's such a subtle difference when typing. If you didn't
hold the shift key at the right instant, you accidentally deleted the
wrong thing. If you have two files named File.txt and file.txt, there is
something wrong.

But then again, it matters to both preserve case sensitivity and to keep
the filename code simple. The filesystem regards 'A' and 'a' as
different characters because they have different byte, ascii and UTF
codes. Treating them the same while preserving identity introduces
unneeded complexity to the filesystem code when most of us would rather
work around the issue and have simpler, faster filesystem operations.
Moreover, case sensitivity allows you to describe file type more
succinctly. For example, I leave the first letter of regular filenames
lowercase but I capitalize the first letter of directory names.
Depending on the circumstances, I'll put a filename in all uppercase to
convey importance. I also use capital letters to show word boundaries to
clear up ambiguities (there's a tech help site with a hyphen in the url
so you know they don't perform gender reassignment surgery).

In the end, I don't care significantly one way or the other. I'll use
whatever is the standard on the system I'm using. If you care enough to
think less of a system over such a detail, then this is what I think of
you: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/mundane-name

-Barry
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 04:48:14PM GMT, Steven Black [blacks@indiana.edu] said the following:
>
> "Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."

Or if you have $3, you can buy a working Pentium 4 2.8GHz at a garage
sale:

http://www.twitpic.com/6s0c3

> People who think in terms of bytes see case insensitivity as silly.
> People who think in terms of letters, however, see it as only logical. I
> fully imagine a case-insensitive home directory to crop up on the list
> of GNOME requirements eventually. It's an ease of use thing.

I could go on as to my reasons why this annoys me and some of you will
just think I'm ranting, but it comes down to this.

Learn to be precise. Computers are not people. I don't care if you can
make them like people, they still won't be people. So its best to just
learn how computers are, and be happy with it.

I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".

As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that pesky
http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Pros: Shiny.

Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

I believe case sensitivity in Mac OS X is a feature of the HFS+ file
system but it is disabled by default. You can enable it by Mac OS
Extended (case sensitive) as the file system type when you format a
volume in Disk Utility. However I'm not sure if there is a way to
enable this after a volume is formatted or for the boot volume.

Andrew

On Jun 19, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Michael Schultheiss wrote:

> Steven Black wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49:38PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>>
>> I checked, as I thought I'd seen an option about it...
>> * http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=2003111009264885
>> * http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21400?viewlocale=en_US
>>
>> Mac OS X Server as of 10.3 had the capacity to have case-sensitive
>> files. Now, journalling started out in Mac OS X Server 10.2, but
>> didn't
>> make it to the desktop until 10.3, so it is possible that the latest
>> versions of Mac OS X Desktop now have the option to be case
>> sensitive.
>
> I've got a 10.5.7 Desktop and after a few minutes of poking around
> Google and the OS X interface I didn't see a way to enable case
> sensitivity. I typically run Linux on my Apple hardware but need at
> least one OS X box for work.
>
>>> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>>
>> "Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."
>
> Stupid inflation - last time I saw that it was a nickel :)
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

Steven Black wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49:38PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>
> I checked, as I thought I'd seen an option about it...
> * http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=2003111009264885
> * http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21400?viewlocale=en_US
>
> Mac OS X Server as of 10.3 had the capacity to have case-sensitive
> files. Now, journalling started out in Mac OS X Server 10.2, but didn't
> make it to the desktop until 10.3, so it is possible that the latest
> versions of Mac OS X Desktop now have the option to be case sensitive.

I've got a 10.5.7 Desktop and after a few minutes of poking around
Google and the OS X interface I didn't see a way to enable case
sensitivity. I typically run Linux on my Apple hardware but need at
least one OS X box for work.

> > Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>
> "Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."

Stupid inflation - last time I saw that it was a nickel :)
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49:38PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
> Dave Cooley wrote:
> > In some ways, Apple screwed up BSD. Things aren't always where they
> > should be and don't always behave how you expect them to behave (for the
> > BSD user, to an extent; let alone for a Linux user like me).

The only way I can contest this is to say: Pretty much every commercial
BSD-derived Unix-like system has behavior quirks unique to that system.
Did Apple screw it up more than Sun? More than DEC? (etc)?

> I wanted to like OSX really badly. I have Apple fanboy friends who had
> been telling me how great it is. You could even consider me a NeXT
> fanboy, weeping at memories of my mono-slab. I got a used G4 at a
> university auction down here in Texas, so I bought a retail version of
> 10.3 for it. Everything was going well until I got to the command line.
> The damn thing wasn't case sensitive. In my mind file, File, and FiLe
> are all referring to different things, but not in OSX. This is one
> bastardization of FreeBSD (that Apple used to model OSX/Darwin off of)
> that I can not accept. Once I found this problem I couldn't take the OS
> seriously anymore, it was just a toy.

I checked, as I thought I'd seen an option about it...
* http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=2003111009264885
* http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21400?viewlocale=en_US

Mac OS X Server as of 10.3 had the capacity to have case-sensitive
files. Now, journalling started out in Mac OS X Server 10.2, but didn't
make it to the desktop until 10.3, so it is possible that the latest
versions of Mac OS X Desktop now have the option to be case sensitive.

It was no more than a toy OS for years. The case insensitivity thing is
basically the last remnant from those times.

You have to take some of it within the context of where they're coming
from. They only recently got filetypes-by-extension. Previously
filetypes were mystical things embedded within the file. You could name
a JPEG file "soup.txt" and when you clicked on it, it would open the
graphics program that created it.

So now you're saying that a .JPEG and a .jpeg and a .Jpeg file are
all different file types? This is a *big* jump from the "what's an
extension?" view-point they still had a few years back.

I mean, when I moved to Linux I thought it was odd that .c were C
files and .C were C++ files. I adjusted to it quickly, but then I was
expecting things to be different. (How many people on this list even
know about this?)


As an aside, I checked mke2fs to see if (perchance) ext2/3 (I'm
using Ubuntu 8.04 LTS on this machine, so no ext4) had support for
case-insensitive filenames. I didn't really think it would be the case.
This is why NTFS has that goofy case-conversion table embedded in the
filesystem, after all.

It is hard to do it right -- this is why XML is case sensitive, but SGML
was not. I'm serious about it being hard, too. For instance, in German
the names Eßen and ESSEN are the same if you ignore the case, and if
you capitalize Eßen in to EßEN then it is exactly like capitalizing
my name as BLAck. The ß letter is exclusively lower case, and to
capitalize it it becomes two S's. Google is totally case insensitive,
allowing different letters in a word to have different capitalizations,
so a search for eßen returns words that match the regular expression
[eE](ß|[sS][sS])[eE][nN], which is what you would expect with properly
functioning case insensitivity.

Anyway, I found that mke2fs has a "-T fs-type" option which allows
for predefined "optimal filesystem parameters" specified in
/etc/mke2fs.conf, the defaults which include "small, floppy, news,
largefile, and largefile4."

What struck me was the "floppy" option. ext2fs historically was a
horrible option for floppies due to the filesystem over-head. Folks
would recommend Minix, VFAT or Tar over ext2. Of course, this is sort of
a moot issue when pretty much no one has (or uses) floppies anymore. It
was just something that struck me.

> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.

"Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."

Ultimately, every OS sucks. It is the acceptance of this truth that
allows me to get through my day.

People who think in terms of bytes see case insensitivity as silly.
People who think in terms of letters, however, see it as only logical. I
fully imagine a case-insensitive home directory to crop up on the list
of GNOME requirements eventually. It's an ease of use thing.

The easiest way for case insensitivity to happen quickly is full support
of JFS as the root partition from the pretty graphical installers. Check
mkfs.jfs and the -O option.

I could also see a fairly simple configuration option
using FUSE. ("case insensitive on purpose file system",
http://freshmeat.net/projects/ciopfs/ ) Of course, with GNOME I'd then
expect this to become the default, and a GCONF setting required to
prevent logging in from overlaying case-insensitivity on to your home
directory.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E