Tuesday, November 9, 2010

Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

On 9 November 2010 11:31, Thomas Smith <tgs@resc.net> wrote:
> Hiya,
>> >From Mark Warner
>>>You can buy pallets of old P-IIIs for next to nothing on eBay.
>>
>> Wow.  This was a great tip.  The most questionable part of that
>> statement, actually, is the P-III part.  I found P-IVs much easier,
>> and they were still amazingly cheap.  Apparently the search term to
>> use is "LOT" as in "LOT OF 10 pentium 4 2.8 GHZ P4, 512 DDR, CDROM"
>> (starting bid $870, 0 bids so far, ends tomorrow evening).  Or "Lot of
>> 34 Dell Optiplex GX260 PC Computer P4 40GB" (Buy it now
>> $1,359.96.. that's $40 each!! shipping will probably make it a bit more,
>> but still).  Mostly I'm averse to used hardware because we want the
>> machines to be reliable, nearly identical, and require little labor to
>> set up.  Buying lots of nearly identical hardware like this should
>> address those concerns.  And the prices are amazing.
>>
>
> One more place to look for these is IU Salvage.  From time to time
> (every couple months) they have an auction, which typically includes
> palettes of desktops and monitors.  Their prices for individual
> computers aren't very good, but it might be a different story for a
> lot of 10.  You could save on shipping :-)

There're actually a couple dozen pallets of servers (including really
cool SGI machines) and non-servers (some Dells, Apples, and the
like--and not super-old-generation stuff either) at the IU surplus
store *right now*, which they're accepting closed bids on until
*Thursday*. If you want to have a look at what they have and maybe
place some bids, I'd suggest heading over there tomorrow (Wednesday).

--
Jonathan

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:58 PM, David Ernst <david.ernst@davidernst.net> wrote:
>>On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> For lagniappe, I'm still trying to train the librarians to "just
>>> reboot the thing; if it doesn't work again, leave it alone for a while
>>> and try rebooting it again later", a phrase which would have saved
>>> them every single support call relating to those things since we put
>>> them in.
>>
>>Just to clarify, this is because the only problems they've experienced
>>were "external" in nature, with the network between the card catalog
>>workstation and the server, and so no actual "support" has ever needed
>>to be performed on these machines other than rebooting them after
>>whatever network issues were cleared up.
>
> Thanks for clarifying.  I was like "what, are they overheating?"

Yeah, I realized that made no sense out of the context of my experience.

> Do you happen to know when these boxes were?  I'm interested.

They're MSI WindBOXes...there are newer versions of the box, II & III,
but we got the first run of them.

For what its worth, our first WindBOX has Ubuntu 7.10 on it, so it's
probably over 2 years old now, younger than 3.

> David

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

>On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
>> For lagniappe, I'm still trying to train the librarians to "just
>> reboot the thing; if it doesn't work again, leave it alone for a while
>> and try rebooting it again later", a phrase which would have saved
>> them every single support call relating to those things since we put
>> them in.
>
>Just to clarify, this is because the only problems they've experienced
>were "external" in nature, with the network between the card catalog
>workstation and the server, and so no actual "support" has ever needed
>to be performed on these machines other than rebooting them after
>whatever network issues were cleared up.

Thanks for clarifying. I was like "what, are they overheating?"

Do you happen to know when these boxes were? I'm interested.

David
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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
> For lagniappe, I'm still trying to train the librarians to "just
> reboot the thing; if it doesn't work again, leave it alone for a while
> and try rebooting it again later", a phrase which would have saved
> them every single support call relating to those things since we put
> them in.

Just to clarify, this is because the only problems they've experienced
were "external" in nature, with the network between the card catalog
workstation and the server, and so no actual "support" has ever needed
to be performed on these machines other than rebooting them after
whatever network issues were cleared up.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Jose Ignacio Lucas Lledo
<ignasilucas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't forget to take power consumption into consideration for
>> budgetary and/or environmental concerns, though. Old PIV desktops will
>> probably suck a lot of power to give you the same performance as that
>> Android tablet, plus the power to run a monitor. (And the expense of a
>> monitor; unless explicitly expressed, I doubt those LOTS come with
>> display devices.)
>
> About environmental concerns, I would say that reusing old stuff that
> would otherwise be trash, saves many more CO2 emissions than what is
> needed to build a new machine. At least, that's the case for cars.
>
> http://www.letra.org/spip/article.php?id_article=3567

That is a good point, and part of the reason I continue to spend my
time refreshing (Linuxizing, for one) and giving away old computers to
people who need computers.

In an institutional setting, though, if there are going to be a lot of
them, and particularly if they're intended to be left on, it's worth
noting the power consumption difference. The reliability can also be
an issue—presenting you with a time vs. money balancing
act—particularly if they'd be used in mission-critical ways, and
particularly if you don't have much time to spend troubleshooting and
replacing dying machines.

We took some of our old computers (Interestingly, Optiplex GX260s,
like the ones in that auction), and built Linux-based card catalog
computers for our libraries (they just bought up to OpenBox, or
something, and run Firefox in full-screen mode on the card catalog
website). Hey, we thought, we'd be getting some extra miles out of
machines that are too slow to use on desks or in labs, and it's not
like it's mission-critical so if they die from time to time, who
cares?

The librarians loved them, and they worked beautifully...most of the
time. The only problem with these machines were that they *became*
mission-critical, and the librarians started expecting these things up
and running all the time. But...sometimes the hard disk would die...or
the processor fan would go haywire...or it would just mysteriously
stop wanting to get through POST: in short, they were behaving like
old, dying computers. While we had plenty of backup parts to keep
fixing them, it kept taking our time (and sometimes in response to
great urgency on the librarian's behalf) to maintain them, not to
mention gas driving to the other campus, etc.

We decided to replace them, and bought three new tiny form factor
boxes (pretty much netbook motherboards crammed into aluminum shells)
that could be VESA mounted onto the back of some LCD monitors we
already had. For one thing, they only consume in the neighborhood of
12 watts, maybe 10% of what the old computers pulled. For another,
they're entirely solid-state (well, we bought solid state drives for
them, so now they are), and so with no moving parts, and the entire
back side of the thing as a heat sink, they're silent and cool. Also,
the card catalog station—unless you peek behind it—just like an LCD
monitor with a keyboard and mouse connected to it; the actual computer
part of it has no desk footprint.

For lagniappe, I'm still trying to train the librarians to "just
reboot the thing; if it doesn't work again, leave it alone for a while
and try rebooting it again later", a phrase which would have saved
them every single support call relating to those things since we put
them in.

Just a story; call it a cautionary tale.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

Hiya,
> >From Mark Warner
>>You can buy pallets of old P-IIIs for next to nothing on eBay.
>
> Wow.  This was a great tip.  The most questionable part of that
> statement, actually, is the P-III part.  I found P-IVs much easier,
> and they were still amazingly cheap.  Apparently the search term to
> use is "LOT" as in "LOT OF 10 pentium 4 2.8 GHZ P4, 512 DDR, CDROM"
> (starting bid $870, 0 bids so far, ends tomorrow evening).  Or "Lot of
> 34 Dell Optiplex GX260 PC Computer P4 40GB" (Buy it now
> $1,359.96.. that's $40 each!! shipping will probably make it a bit more,
> but still).  Mostly I'm averse to used hardware because we want the
> machines to be reliable, nearly identical, and require little labor to
> set up.  Buying lots of nearly identical hardware like this should
> address those concerns.  And the prices are amazing.
>

One more place to look for these is IU Salvage. From time to time
(every couple months) they have an auction, which typically includes
palettes of desktops and monitors. Their prices for individual
computers aren't very good, but it might be a different story for a
lot of 10. You could save on shipping :-)

-Thomas

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

David Ernst wrote:

>>From Mark Warner
>> You can buy pallets of old P-IIIs for next to nothing on eBay.
>
> Wow. This was a great tip. The most questionable part of that
> statement, actually, is the P-III part. I found P-IVs much easier,
> and they were still amazingly cheap. Apparently the search term to
> use is "LOT" as in "LOT OF 10 pentium 4 2.8 GHZ P4, 512 DDR, CDROM"
> (starting bid $870, 0 bids so far, ends tomorrow evening). Or "Lot of
> 34 Dell Optiplex GX260 PC Computer P4 40GB" (Buy it now
> $1,359.96.. that's $40 each!! shipping will probably make it a bit more,
> but still). Mostly I'm averse to used hardware because we want the
> machines to be reliable, nearly identical, and require little labor to
> set up. Buying lots of nearly identical hardware like this should
> address those concerns. And the prices are amazing.

Glad that helped. Common carrier freight on that should be in the
$150-250 range, depending on weight, volume, and distance, so it might
add $8 to the unit cost. If it were me, I'd count on 3-4 being DOA or
otherwise needing some TLC. If you got 30 good ones for around $1600,
you'd be looking at roughly $55 each. Not too shabby. Set one up, image
rest of the drives, and off you go.

Sounds like it would be a fun project. Then again, I'm kind of a
hardware tinkerer. Comes from cobbling together old junk to make
something usable -- there's some satisfaction in that. Heck, I'd even be
willing to roll up my sleeves and help if you bought the pizza.

--
Mark Warner
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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

> Don't forget to take power consumption into consideration for
> budgetary and/or environmental concerns, though. Old PIV desktops will
> probably suck a lot of power to give you the same performance as that
> Android tablet, plus the power to run a monitor. (And the expense of a
> monitor; unless explicitly expressed, I doubt those LOTS come with
> display devices.)

About environmental concerns, I would say that reusing old stuff that
would otherwise be trash, saves many more CO2 emissions than what is
needed to build a new machine. At least, that's the case for cars.

http://www.letra.org/spip/article.php?id_article=3567

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 9:09 AM, David Ernst <david.ernst@davidernst.net> wrote:
> >From Mark Warner
>>You can buy pallets of old P-IIIs for next to nothing on eBay.
>
> Wow.  This was a great tip.
> Mostly I'm averse to used hardware because we want the
> machines to be reliable, nearly identical, and require little labor to
> set up.  Buying lots of nearly identical hardware like this should
> address those concerns.  And the prices are amazing.

Yeah, just buy twice as many as you need, and you'll have enough spare
parts to last you a good long while! They may be old and prone to die
at some point, but I've got an identical one at home I can swap it out
for if any part of it dies (just swap the hard disk over and voila).

Don't forget to take power consumption into consideration for
budgetary and/or environmental concerns, though. Old PIV desktops will
probably suck a lot of power to give you the same performance as that
Android tablet, plus the power to run a monitor. (And the expense of a
monitor; unless explicitly expressed, I doubt those LOTS come with
display devices.)

Just some thoughts.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] How cheap can you build a box? - redux

Thanks to all of you who replied with suggestions about hardware for
the cheap appliance I'm talking about working on. I thought I'd
summarize the responses for easy reference (for me, my colleague,
and why not share it with you all too!).

>From Mark Krenz:
> Perhaps a Beagle Board would be an option: http://beagleboard.org/

I was so glad I'd asked BLUG about this just from this first
response. These look really cool. My gut feeling is that for our
proposed application there'd be too much labor involved per machine,
plus the end cost is going to be very similar to the EEE Touch screen
thing. But, still, I love knowing about things like this.

>From Chris Colvard
>You might also check out mini-ITX motherboards: http://www.mini-box.com/

Similar to the beagle board, looks extremely cool, makes me dream
about building waterproof devices for all kinds of weird
applications. But, also probably not-quite-cheap-enough and
too-much-labor for my current project.

>From Michael Schultheiss
>K-mart has Android tablets for $179.99: http://bit.ly/dwfUaV

>From Jonathan North Washington
>..Android pads for as low as $129.99: http://bit.ly/93oVKD

These are tempting, the fact that they are cheap and include a touch
screen already make them very attractive. The biggest problem is that
the screen is only 7" big. There are a lot of 7" android devices. I
can't picture them. My droid and other smart phones are down around
4", and I've seen lots of tablet like things at 10" and above (iPad,
my netbook, etc). But, I can't remember seeing anyone using something
7". Any clues?

10" Droid tablets are just starting to be released. There's a fair
amount of buzz about the Advent Vega, which is just being released in
the UK for just under $400 (not yet available in the US). Asus is
apparently on the verge of releasing one too. Hopefully in a few
months there will be lots of options and the prices will come down
even more.

>From Mark Warner
>You can buy pallets of old P-IIIs for next to nothing on eBay.

Wow. This was a great tip. The most questionable part of that
statement, actually, is the P-III part. I found P-IVs much easier,
and they were still amazingly cheap. Apparently the search term to
use is "LOT" as in "LOT OF 10 pentium 4 2.8 GHZ P4, 512 DDR, CDROM"
(starting bid $870, 0 bids so far, ends tomorrow evening). Or "Lot of
34 Dell Optiplex GX260 PC Computer P4 40GB" (Buy it now
$1,359.96.. that's $40 each!! shipping will probably make it a bit more,
but still). Mostly I'm averse to used hardware because we want the
machines to be reliable, nearly identical, and require little labor to
set up. Buying lots of nearly identical hardware like this should
address those concerns. And the prices are amazing.

>From Lord Drachenblut
>This might be a viable option http://www.norhtec.com/

Since the mid '90s I've been continuously surprised that network
computing never took off. Good to know that people are still making
these. Again, I can imagine applications for this that I would love.
However, I don't think it's my current application. I think these
would sit there with no network connection and panic. :)

Thanks VERY MUCH to everyone for your feedback!! It was extremely
helpful.

David

On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 02:33:40PM -0400, David Ernst wrote:
>General question, only tangentially linux related:
>
>I was talking with a colleague about the possibility of building a
>dedicated appliance for a certain application. They'd need to deploy
>a number of them, so they'd like them to be inexpensive. It would use
>a touch screen monitor, not necessarily have any networking, and not
>need impressive computing power. I thought "my netbook could do it",
>but then I thought, my netbook has all kind of things that we don't
>need, like fold-up portability, a webcam, etc. And we definitely
>wouldn't need the latest-greatest processor speed either. Although we
>wouldn't want used equipment either...
>
>So, the question basically comes down to: what's the cheapest system
>you could buy/build that would
>
>* run linux
>* attach to a monitor
>* have usb ports
>
>We really wouldn't need a Hard Drive, a 16G SD card would be fine.
>
>The simple, easy solution would be to get something like this:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-ETP1602C-BK-X0163-Touch-Screen-Desktop/dp/B002VY8OS8
>
>so, if we can't significantly beat $380, there's no use. And that's
>including the touchscreen monitor, which will be at least $100, so
>with no monitor it's gotta be down well below $300, preferably below
>$200. But, couldn't you get a motherboard, a not-super-fast CPU, some
>kind of a case, and a USB Interface for less than that? Thoughts?
>
>Another option is an iPad, or preferably a iPad-like Android device,
>which seem to be "soon but not quite yet". Thoughts on those?
>
>David
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