BLUG: May 2010

Thursday, May 27, 2010

Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 16:30 -0400, Jeremy L. Gaddis wrote:
> I suppose I'll throw on a Fedora t-shirt, in celebration of lucky
> version 13.

Gah, I knew I should have bought a new OpenBSD T-Shirt when I retired my
old one.

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

Awesome that would be greatly appreciated

On May 27, 2010 5:05 PM, "Jeremy L. Gaddis" <jeremy@evilrouters.net> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Lord Drachenblut
<lord.drachenblut@gmail.com> wrote:
> anyone going...
I don't think I have any DVDs handy here, but I can throw the ISOs on
a flash drive if you bring a laptop or something.

--

Jeremy L. Gaddis
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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Lord Drachenblut
<lord.drachenblut@gmail.com> wrote:
> anyone going who has a spare copy of fedora 13 DVD they could bring with
> them for me would be appreciated. Life on dialup sucks

I don't think I have any DVDs handy here, but I can throw the ISOs on
a flash drive if you bring a laptop or something.

--
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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

anyone going who has a spare copy of fedora 13 DVD they could bring with them for me would be appreciated. Life on dialup sucks

Thanks
Lord d

On May 27, 2010 4:31 PM, "Jeremy L. Gaddis" <jeremy@evilrouters.net> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> I'll have a big penguin on ...
Thanks for the clarification, Mark. =)

> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:19:38PM GMT, Aaron W. Hsu [arcfide@sacrideo.us] said the following:
>> The only question I have is, how will I know the rest of you? We'll all
>> be wearing Linux shirt...
I suppose I'll throw on a Fedora t-shirt, in celebration of lucky version 13.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis

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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> I'll have a big penguin on the table. Not a real one. Plus I'll be

Thanks for the clarification, Mark. =)

> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:19:38PM GMT, Aaron W. Hsu [arcfide@sacrideo.us] said the following:
>> The only question I have is, how will I know the rest of you? We'll all
>> be wearing Linux shirts? :-)

I suppose I'll throw on a Fedora t-shirt, in celebration of lucky version 13.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis

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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

I'll have a big penguin on the table. Not a real one. Plus I'll be
wearing a penguin computing shirt. I'll be going a little early to eat
with my family.

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 07:19:38PM GMT, Aaron W. Hsu [arcfide@sacrideo.us] said the following:
> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 14:33 -0400, Kevin Ratcliff wrote:
> > I've only been to one BLUG meeting before, so I haven't had a chance
> > to meet many of you yet.
>
> The only question I have is, how will I know the rest of you? We'll all
> be wearing Linux shirts? :-)
>
> Aaron W. Hsu

> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 14:33 -0400, Kevin Ratcliff wrote:
> I've only been to one BLUG meeting before, so I haven't had a chance
> to meet many of you yet.

The only question I have is, how will I know the rest of you? We'll all
be wearing Linux shirts? :-)

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> Just wanted to remind everyone about this. Haven't heard from anyone
> if they were planning on going or not. Maybe it was too short of notice.

I plan to be there; thanks for the reminder of I would've forgotten.
I've only been to one BLUG meeting before, so I haven't had a chance
to meet many of you yet.

Kevin

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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

Informal BLUG get together.

Max's Place
109 W. 7th street (Between Walnut St. and College Ave.)
http://www.maxsplace.info/

6pm today

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 05:59:09PM GMT, Kelly McEvilly [kellym@wbhcp.com] said the following:
> Doh!
>
> What?
> Where?
> When?
>
> Kelly McEvilly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:54:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night
>
> On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 17:50 +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> > Just wanted to remind everyone about this. Haven't heard from anyone
> > if they were planning on going or not. Maybe it was too short of
> > notice.
>
> I'm tentatively planning to go.
>
> Aaron W. Hsu
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

Mark Krenz wrote:
> Just wanted to remind everyone about this. Haven't heard from anyone
> if they were planning on going or not. Maybe it was too short of notice.
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 12:10:56AM GMT, Mark Krenz [mark@slugbug.org] said the following:
>
>> Instead of just starting things off with another meeting, I thought
>> we'd start off just hanging out for dinner/drink or whatever. Its nice
>> to be able to sit around and talk with all of you about Linux and Open
>> Source topics, get to know each other, etc. I think it will be fun. I'd
>> like to especially extend an invitation to those of you who are new to
>> the group and were looking forward to a meeting.
>>
>> How about meeting this Thursday at Max's Place at 6pm til 7 or 8.
>> Max's Place is on 7th street between College and Walnut. Hope to see you
>> there. If you can't make it this time, there will be more.
>>
>> By the way, Fedora 13 is being released tomorrow, if someone wanted to
>> install it and bring it to the meeting to show off, that would be cool.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Krenz
>> Bloomington Linux Users Group
>> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
I was planning on coming if I did not forget. Your email helps me remember.

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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

Doh!

What?
Where?
When?

Kelly McEvilly

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 1:54:22 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

On Thu, 2010-05-27 at 17:50 +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> Just wanted to remind everyone about this. Haven't heard from anyone
> if they were planning on going or not. Maybe it was too short of
> notice.

I'm tentatively planning to go.

Aaron W. Hsu

_______________________________________________
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Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

I'm tentatively planning to go.

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

Just wanted to remind everyone about this. Haven't heard from anyone
if they were planning on going or not. Maybe it was too short of notice.

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 12:10:56AM GMT, Mark Krenz [mark@slugbug.org] said the following:
>
> Instead of just starting things off with another meeting, I thought
> we'd start off just hanging out for dinner/drink or whatever. Its nice
> to be able to sit around and talk with all of you about Linux and Open
> Source topics, get to know each other, etc. I think it will be fun. I'd
> like to especially extend an invitation to those of you who are new to
> the group and were looking forward to a meeting.
>
> How about meeting this Thursday at Max's Place at 6pm til 7 or 8.
> Max's Place is on 7th street between College and Walnut. Hope to see you
> there. If you can't make it this time, there will be more.
>
> By the way, Fedora 13 is being released tomorrow, if someone wanted to
> install it and bring it to the meeting to show off, that would be cool.
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

Monday, May 24, 2010

[BLUG] Group hangout thursday night

Instead of just starting things off with another meeting, I thought
we'd start off just hanging out for dinner/drink or whatever. Its nice
to be able to sit around and talk with all of you about Linux and Open
Source topics, get to know each other, etc. I think it will be fun. I'd
like to especially extend an invitation to those of you who are new to
the group and were looking forward to a meeting.

How about meeting this Thursday at Max's Place at 6pm til 7 or 8.
Max's Place is on 7th street between College and Walnut. Hope to see you
there. If you can't make it this time, there will be more.

By the way, Fedora 13 is being released tomorrow, if someone wanted to
install it and bring it to the meeting to show off, that would be cool.

Wednesday, May 19, 2010

Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

I have not seen mentioned two of the main UNIX enterprise manufacturers:
HP with HP-UX and Sun with Solaris. Both are highly common in England
and France whereas I never ran into an AIX box outside of this country
(though my experience is limited to a couple of Asian countries and the
previously mentioned European countries). Certainly price will become an
issue, but the support is top-notch. Ultimately, though, the cluster
idea should stay near the top of your requirements if growth is going to
be less painful. You may not have to start with a cluster, but a single
computer that can join a cluster easily will avoid growth pains.
Likewise, NAS is more feasible for clustering. If the price you
mentioned is a hard limit, I don't envy the hard choices that will
surely follow for the few requirements you stated. I can hit that limit
with a consumer grade x86 with a few Xeons, ECC RAM, and SCSI drives,
but I wouldn't call it robust or enterprise-grade. Depends on your
needs and hardware failure tolerance.

--
Jeff

My other computer is an abacus.

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Tuesday, May 18, 2010

Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Hi Ignasi,

Some of the answers to your questions really depend on the
requirements of the end users. For instance, what is the primary area
of research (microarray, sequencing, phylogenetics, web database,
etc...)? Each specialized area can have different requirements. You
also need to take into account the applications that they want to run
and what operating systems they are compatible with. If this is going
to be used for processing high throughput sequencing then you might
want to take a look at cloud computing solutions instead of running it
locally (1).

As others have already said, definitely go with a RAID or ZFS (2)
system with some sort of backup system. I generally prefer hardware
RAID cards because they tend to have better performance, support
advanced RAID levels that you usually don't get with software RAID,
and are less susceptible (not immune) to software bugs in my
experience. I've also run into problems with software RAID where it
complicated the use of traditional system rescue tools. Not something
you want to happen when you are in a pinch.

For linux distros I would suggest anything with a long term patch
cycle such as Ubuntu LTS or Centos. If you care to check out ZFS your
choices are FreeBSD, OpenSolaris, or Nexenta (3). Above all else,
remember to check what software your users will want to run and make
sure that it compiles and runs cleanly on your system. Many
bioinformatics packages can be a bit fickle when it comes to different
platforms or even different versions of platforms.

1. The case for cloud computing in genome informatics - Lincoln Stein
(http://genomebiology.com/2010/11/5/207)
2. ZFS - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
3. Nexenta - http://www.nexenta.org/

Good luck!

Josh

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Ignasi <ignasilucas@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello.
>
> A colleague is starting his own biology lab in Spain, and he's planning to
> spend between 10,000 and 15,000 € in a computer. He asked me what features I
> think the computer should have. The fact is that I'd like to provide him
> some useful information, because I expect him to give me a job soon. So, I'd
> really appreciate your advise. Anything from hardware brands to operating
> systems will be welcome. Plus, how to spend money in hardware is a subject
> that also interests me personally. Let me give you some more background
> about what the computer may be used for.
>
> I expect between 4 and 10 people to use it at the same time. Most jobs will
> be CPU intensive, but I can also envision some sporadic jobs to require
> several GB of RAM. He also wants to store quite a bit of data there, and
> maybe host a database. I assume that nobody would use it as a desktop, but
> it would be accessed remotely. In principle, the main concern is to make it
> a fast computer.
>
> I've read a little bit about RAID arrays, but never met anybody who used
> them. I'm interested in those configurations where data is mirrored, so that
> the system can tolerate the failure of one of the disks. And I've been
> warned that if all the disks composing the array are of the same brand and
> design, more than one may fail at the same time. Do you think RAID is worthy
> at all, or not necessary with a good back up system? what is better, an
> operating system RAID controller, or a hardware one?
>
> As a biologist who works with computers, I'd like to learn more about this
> topics. Feel free to recommend books, magazines, web sites... that I can use
> to teach myself. Thanks.
>
> Ignasi.
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>

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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Thanks a lot for all your replies. I enjoy reading you.

2010/5/18 Thomas Smith <tgs@resc.net>

Hi,
The ridiculous prices usually come when you have them preinstall a
disk on a system. It's always much cheaper to buy a disk separately
than to have them install it. The bad part is that, as has been said
before, they only give the system exactly the parts that it needs as
you order it, so forget about getting an extra drive sled in the box,
for instance. Perverse incentives... it's in their best interest if
the system is as un-expandable as possible.
-Thomas

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> Mark,
>> Here is an option for a server hard drive from Dell's website just now:
>>
>> 1TB 7.2K RPM SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive [$449.00]
>>
>> From Newegg:
>>
>> Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA Drive - $159.99
>
> What's the URL you got from Dell? Looks like it's more than bare bone drive
> (since it's "cabled hard drive.") I just went to Dell and here are some
> sample URLs:
>
> 1) 1TB 7200 RPM Hot Swappable Serial ATA II Hard Drive for Dell PowerEdge 2900 Server
> for $148.99 (with tray).
> http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=341-5895
>
> 2) 1TB 7200 RPM Serial ATA Hard Drive for Dell Vostro 220/ 430 / Studio XPS 8000 Desktop
> for $120.99
>
> http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=341-8259
>
> 3) 1TB Caviar Blue SATA 3 Internal Hard Drive for $83.99
>
> http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=A3677038
>
> Thanks,
> Shing-Shong
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
http://resc.smugmug.com/

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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Hi,
The ridiculous prices usually come when you have them preinstall a
disk on a system. It's always much cheaper to buy a disk separately
than to have them install it. The bad part is that, as has been said
before, they only give the system exactly the parts that it needs as
you order it, so forget about getting an extra drive sled in the box,
for instance. Perverse incentives... it's in their best interest if
the system is as un-expandable as possible.
-Thomas

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> Mark,
>> Here is an option for a server hard drive from Dell's website just now:
>>
>> 1TB 7.2K RPM SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive [$449.00]
>>
>> From Newegg:
>>
>> Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA Drive - $159.99
>
> What's the URL you got from Dell? Looks like it's more than bare bone drive
> (since it's "cabled hard drive.") I just went to Dell and here are some
> sample URLs:
>
> 1) 1TB 7200 RPM Hot Swappable Serial ATA II Hard Drive for Dell PowerEdge 2900 Server
> for $148.99 (with tray).
> http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=341-5895
>
> 2) 1TB 7200 RPM Serial ATA Hard Drive for Dell Vostro 220/ 430 / Studio XPS 8000 Desktop
> for $120.99
>
> http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=341-8259
>
> 3) 1TB Caviar Blue SATA 3 Internal Hard Drive for $83.99
>
> http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=A3677038
>
> Thanks,
> Shing-Shong
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Mark,
> Here is an option for a server hard drive from Dell's website just now:
>
> 1TB 7.2K RPM SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive [$449.00]
>
> From Newegg:
>
> Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA Drive - $159.99

What's the URL you got from Dell? Looks like it's more than bare bone drive
(since it's "cabled hard drive.") I just went to Dell and here are some
sample URLs:

1) 1TB 7200 RPM Hot Swappable Serial ATA II Hard Drive for Dell PowerEdge 2900 Server
for $148.99 (with tray).
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=341-5895

2) 1TB 7200 RPM Serial ATA Hard Drive for Dell Vostro 220/ 430 / Studio XPS 8000 Desktop
for $120.99

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=341-8259

3) 1TB Caviar Blue SATA 3 Internal Hard Drive for $83.99

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/System_Drives/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=A3677038

Thanks,
Shing-Shong
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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

There is one important aspect to buying drives off of newegg for a
server: if the replacement drives have fewer sectors than the original
drives in the array they won't work. Since hard drive vendors play it
pretty loose with how they define capacity, its kind of a crap shoot.

Apple bit me on that one -- the replacement 80G drive for the system
disk mirror was about 2M smaller than the original drive so I had to
rebuild the mirror by hand. One drive was a Maxtor and the other was a
Seagate. I wouldn't be surprised if different models of 80G drives from
the same manufacturer would have different sector counts.

All of our servers are IBM (except for that stupid Mac) and when you get
a replacement drive from them its the exact same drive. We had some
older pSeries machines (one was 9 years old) and the replacement drives
were IBM refurbs of the original drives.

Brian

On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 16:14 -0400, Simón Ruiz wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> > Here is an option for a server hard drive from Dell's website just now:
> >
> > 1TB 7.2K RPM SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive [$449.00]
> >
> > From Newegg:
> >
> > Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA Drive - $159.99
> >
> > So with 12 drives that's $3480 overpaid.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark Krenz
> > Bloomington Linux Users Group
> > http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
> You hit the biggest problem/easiest fix on the nose.
>
> We got a great deal from Dell on some file servers and RAID enclosures.
>
> It was the end of the quarter, and the salesperson seemed to be
> working towards a quota or something, because we got an awesome price
> on the whole shebang.
>
> When we went *back* (when the time pressure was off) to ask them for
> an extra couple of SATA hard disks for it (we also needed these
> caddies/sleds to slide the disks in right;they only give you exactly
> enough, which I think is their form of "DRM" to get you to go buy
> everything from them). They pointed to prices like those and I just
> laughed. I pointed out that I could easily buy the equipment I wanted
> from elsewhere for more than 75% off their price, and the salesperson
> observed that such hard disks would not be covered by Dell tech
> support.
>
> I pointed out that I've never asked for tech support on "Dell hard
> drives", and that if I bought twice the number of hard drives so I had
> an entire set of drives on hand to swap out I'd still be paying less
> than half what Dell wanted; that the economics of the situation
> demanded Dell lower their price if they expected us to take them
> seriously.
>
> There was absolutely no reply to that, so I went on eBay for the right
> caddies, and bought the SATA drives from NewEgg.
>
> I've yet to regret it.
>
> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> Here is an option for a server hard drive from Dell's website just now:
>
> 1TB 7.2K RPM SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive [$449.00]
>
> From Newegg:
>
> Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA Drive - $159.99
>
> So with 12 drives that's $3480 overpaid.
>
>
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

You hit the biggest problem/easiest fix on the nose.

We got a great deal from Dell on some file servers and RAID enclosures.

It was the end of the quarter, and the salesperson seemed to be
working towards a quota or something, because we got an awesome price
on the whole shebang.

When we went *back* (when the time pressure was off) to ask them for
an extra couple of SATA hard disks for it (we also needed these
caddies/sleds to slide the disks in right;they only give you exactly
enough, which I think is their form of "DRM" to get you to go buy
everything from them). They pointed to prices like those and I just
laughed. I pointed out that I could easily buy the equipment I wanted
from elsewhere for more than 75% off their price, and the salesperson
observed that such hard disks would not be covered by Dell tech
support.

I pointed out that I've never asked for tech support on "Dell hard
drives", and that if I bought twice the number of hard drives so I had
an entire set of drives on hand to swap out I'd still be paying less
than half what Dell wanted; that the economics of the situation
demanded Dell lower their price if they expected us to take them
seriously.

There was absolutely no reply to that, so I went on eBay for the right
caddies, and bought the SATA drives from NewEgg.

I've yet to regret it.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Hiya,

I run the computer infrastructure for a psychology lab at IU, and am
actually struggling with related questions right now. But anyway, my
observations are:

Having as many processors/cores available as possible is great. If 4
to 10 people are going to use the server at the same time, this lets
more of them get their work done at once. Right before a paper
deadline, I've seen 3 or 4 people running several MATLAB processes
each, at the same time, and it's great to have the capacity for this.
Of course, our system is really underutilized when that's not
happening, which I guess is an attraction of cloud computing...

We're just starting to run into some difficulties with getting enough
storage space available. If your dataset is going to expand, and of
course it is, it probably makes sense to have some sort of external
disk drive chassis, which connects to your server through iSCSI, SAS,
or something. Many of these systems will allow you to add storage to
your server without any downtime---just stick another terabyte into a
free drive bay. Unfortunately, there are a multitude of ways to do
this, and it seems to be very difficult to figure out using only the
internet. I think I need to consult with an actual expert before I'll
be able to recommend something to my boss.

Are all your users going to be collaborating on the same dataset? If
so, I'd recommend that you keep incremental backups, or better yet use
some kind of version control (svn or git would be best, hg doesn't
handle large files well). We've had a lot of problems with the
granularity of our permissions being too gross, and not being able to
track changes, on account of lacking a real version control system.

> Agreed as well, RAID is not a substitute for backups. Although a
> question for the group: how to people do backups these days on large
> (multi-TB) data sets? I assume to hard drive somehow, but when you're
> talking about 10-20TB, that's not necessarily very easy, especially if
> you want to take those backups off-site.
This is not very useful for most people, but I've been using IU's MDSS
--- http://uits.iu.edu/page/aiyi --- for backup storage. It has 4.2
petabytes of storage, on a tape robot system with a hard-drive-based
cache. It has 2 nodes, located in Bloomington and Indy, so it seems
very secure. And it's free for IU researchers. Yay!

I think that other people are using cloud-based storage. For
instance, Amazon S3 charges something like $0.10 / GB to transfer
data, then $0.10/GB/month for storage. So that's about $100/tb per
month for storage and another $100 for transfer. Hmm. That's sort of
expensive, but there are services that will manage this for you (Mozy,
ZManda).

Maybe you could find someone who will swap a few rack units of
colocation space with you, and back up to disk servers on each other's
networks?

Um, I guess I've talked a lot. Good luck, Ignasi! Do you have a set
date that you're leaving for Spain? Have you gone already?
-Thomas

>
> At a former job, I once had the pleasure of being able to buy a server
> from these folks:
>
> http://www.asaservers.com
>
> Very nice machine, at am impressive price. I didn't stay at the job
> long enough to play with it all that much, but I wish I had... I
> doubt that you'll want to buy from them if the machine is going to
> Spain, but it could give you an idea of what you can get for the
> money. Of course, you could check Dell, etc., too.
>
> How do people feel about multi-processor machines? I know little
> about them, but if you've got a big budget to buy a fast machine, I'd
> think that it'd be something you'd consider.
>
> David
>
>
> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 07:13:57PM -0400, Jeremy L. Gaddis wrote:
>>On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Ignasi <ignasilucas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I expect between 4 and 10 people to use it at the same time. Most jobs will
>>> be CPU intensive, but I can also envision some sporadic jobs to require
>>> several GB of RAM. He also wants to store quite a bit of data there, and
>>> maybe host a database. I assume that nobody would use it as a desktop, but
>>> it would be accessed remotely. In principle, the main concern is to make it
>>> a fast computer.
>>
>>Have you considered the potential benefits of a number of smaller servers
>>instead of a single large server? I'm not familiar with exactly what you're
>>doing, but it be worth investigating.
>>
>>> I've read a little bit about RAID arrays, but never met anybody who used
>>> them. I'm interested in those configurations where data is mirrored, so that
>>> the system can tolerate the failure of one of the disks. And I've been
>>> warned that if all the disks composing the array are of the same brand and
>>> design, more than one may fail at the same time. Do you think RAID is worthy
>>> at all, or not necessary with a good back up system? what is better, an
>>> operating system RAID controller, or a hardware one?
>>
>>If the data is considered important, RAID is a must. The data on my home
>>servers isn't critical and no financial meltdown will occur if I lose
>>it, but it's
>>important enough to me that I use RAID at home.
>>
>>Steven mentioned hot spares. I'm also a big fan of hot spares, as the
>>failed drive
>>is automatically replaced by another (hopefully good!) drive and
>>rebuilding begins
>>(almost) immediately. Without a hot spare, someone must physically
>>pull the failed
>>drive and replace it before rebuilding of the array will begin.
>>During that time, if
>>another drive happens to fails, you will (typically) lose data -- this
>>is dependent on
>>what type of RAID you're using, however.
>>
>>Also, and I can't stress this enough: RAID IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BACKUPS.
>>
>>As I said, if a drive in a RAID array fails, you can pull the dead
>>drive and replace it
>>without (online) losing any data. Heck, I've done just that less than
>>an hour ago.
>>If, however, your data becomes corrupted/accidentally deleted/etc., RAID is not
>>going to help you out a bit, and you're going to wish you had those backups.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy L. Gaddis
>>http://evilrouters.net/
>>_______________________________________________
>>BLUG mailing list
>>BLUG@linuxfan.com
>>http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
http://resc.smugmug.com/

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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 01:54:04PM GMT, Josh Goodman [jogoodman@gmail.com] said the following:
>
> My experience with Dell has been the opposite. Yes, Dell does sometimes overcharge but it depends
> entirely on what systems you are spec'ing, the entity doing the purchasing (company, university,
> self, etc...), and any contracts your company or university already has with them. I just completed
> a bid process a couple of weeks ago for a 12 TB 16 core server and Dell was very competitive with
> Supermicro. I've heard the same thing about Dell's competitive pricing from colleagues at other
> institutions as well. I'm not trying to push Dell over other options, but I think it is a mistake
> to exclude them from the start.

You probably got good pricing being in a large enterprise situation,
but someone who is just starting out is not likely to get good pricing.
I work at a large company during the day that gets large discounts from
Dell because they buy a lot of equipment from them, but at Suso I barely
got a discount at all from them and they were always much more expensive
than the equivilent Supermicro system. Especially higher end systems
with more redundancy, more RAM, more drives, etc. And for something
like a 12TB 16 core server you are likely to get really ripped off.

Here is an option for a server hard drive from Dell's website just now:

1TB 7.2K RPM SATA 3Gbps 3.5-in Cabled Hard Drive [$449.00]

From Newegg:

Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA Drive - $159.99

So with 12 drives that's $3480 overpaid.

Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

My experience with Dell has been the opposite. Yes, Dell does sometimes overcharge but it depends
entirely on what systems you are spec'ing, the entity doing the purchasing (company, university,
self, etc...), and any contracts your company or university already has with them. I just completed
a bid process a couple of weeks ago for a 12 TB 16 core server and Dell was very competitive with
Supermicro. I've heard the same thing about Dell's competitive pricing from colleagues at other
institutions as well. I'm not trying to push Dell over other options, but I think it is a mistake
to exclude them from the start.

In short, get lots of bids (including ones you think might be too expensive), look them all over,
and go with the best bang for your buck (euro).

Josh

On 05/18/2010 08:46 AM, Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:24:30PM GMT, David Ernst [david.ernst@davidernst.net] said the following:
>>
>> At a former job, I once had the pleasure of being able to buy a server
>> from these folks:
>>
>> http://www.asaservers.com
>>
>> Very nice machine, at am impressive price. I didn't stay at the job
>
>
> Yes, those are decent prices for them putting it together for you.
> Definate a lot better than Dell. What ASA is doing here is taking
> Supermicro barebones servers (which is a brand I highly recommend) and
> helping you add in the parts to complete the whole server.
>
> At Suso I buy the parts seperately and put it together myself, which
> is cheaper, but requires that I do my research and make sure I have the
> right parts. So its time vs. money.
>
> But ASA seems to be much more competitive pricewise than other
> companies I've seen who do the same thing.
>
> I can't recommend enough to stay away from Dell. They have nice
> servers, but they grossly overcharge.
>
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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:24:30PM GMT, David Ernst [david.ernst@davidernst.net] said the following:
>
> At a former job, I once had the pleasure of being able to buy a server
> from these folks:
>
> http://www.asaservers.com
>
> Very nice machine, at am impressive price. I didn't stay at the job

Yes, those are decent prices for them putting it together for you.
Definate a lot better than Dell. What ASA is doing here is taking
Supermicro barebones servers (which is a brand I highly recommend) and
helping you add in the parts to complete the whole server.

At Suso I buy the parts seperately and put it together myself, which
is cheaper, but requires that I do my research and make sure I have the
right parts. So its time vs. money.

But ASA seems to be much more competitive pricewise than other
companies I've seen who do the same thing.

I can't recommend enough to stay away from Dell. They have nice
servers, but they grossly overcharge.

Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Just to chime in here...

Agreed, RAID is awesome. If your budget can support it -- and,
Ignasi, yours certainly can -- you should totally do it, unless your
machine is basically a thin client, which obviously isn't the case
here.

Agreed as well, RAID is not a substitute for backups. Although a
question for the group: how to people do backups these days on large
(multi-TB) data sets? I assume to hard drive somehow, but when you're
talking about 10-20TB, that's not necessarily very easy, especially if
you want to take those backups off-site.

At a former job, I once had the pleasure of being able to buy a server
from these folks:

http://www.asaservers.com

Very nice machine, at am impressive price. I didn't stay at the job
long enough to play with it all that much, but I wish I had... I
doubt that you'll want to buy from them if the machine is going to
Spain, but it could give you an idea of what you can get for the
money. Of course, you could check Dell, etc., too.

How do people feel about multi-processor machines? I know little
about them, but if you've got a big budget to buy a fast machine, I'd
think that it'd be something you'd consider.

David

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 07:13:57PM -0400, Jeremy L. Gaddis wrote:
>On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Ignasi <ignasilucas@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I expect between 4 and 10 people to use it at the same time. Most jobs will
>> be CPU intensive, but I can also envision some sporadic jobs to require
>> several GB of RAM. He also wants to store quite a bit of data there, and
>> maybe host a database. I assume that nobody would use it as a desktop, but
>> it would be accessed remotely. In principle, the main concern is to make it
>> a fast computer.
>
>Have you considered the potential benefits of a number of smaller servers
>instead of a single large server? I'm not familiar with exactly what you're
>doing, but it be worth investigating.
>
>> I've read a little bit about RAID arrays, but never met anybody who used
>> them. I'm interested in those configurations where data is mirrored, so that
>> the system can tolerate the failure of one of the disks. And I've been
>> warned that if all the disks composing the array are of the same brand and
>> design, more than one may fail at the same time. Do you think RAID is worthy
>> at all, or not necessary with a good back up system? what is better, an
>> operating system RAID controller, or a hardware one?
>
>If the data is considered important, RAID is a must. The data on my home
>servers isn't critical and no financial meltdown will occur if I lose
>it, but it's
>important enough to me that I use RAID at home.
>
>Steven mentioned hot spares. I'm also a big fan of hot spares, as the
>failed drive
>is automatically replaced by another (hopefully good!) drive and
>rebuilding begins
>(almost) immediately. Without a hot spare, someone must physically
>pull the failed
>drive and replace it before rebuilding of the array will begin.
>During that time, if
>another drive happens to fails, you will (typically) lose data -- this
>is dependent on
>what type of RAID you're using, however.
>
>Also, and I can't stress this enough: RAID IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BACKUPS.
>
>As I said, if a drive in a RAID array fails, you can pull the dead
>drive and replace it
>without (online) losing any data. Heck, I've done just that less than
>an hour ago.
>If, however, your data becomes corrupted/accidentally deleted/etc., RAID is not
>going to help you out a bit, and you're going to wish you had those backups.
>
>--
>Jeremy L. Gaddis
>http://evilrouters.net/
>_______________________________________________
>BLUG mailing list
>BLUG@linuxfan.com
>http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
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Monday, May 17, 2010

Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 19:13 -0400, Jeremy L. Gaddis wrote:

> Have you considered the potential benefits of a number of smaller
> servers
> instead of a single large server? I'm not familiar with exactly what
> you're
> doing, but it be worth investigating.

While this is something to consider, there is also a movement among some
to consolidate tiny servers into a single virtualized environment using
things like Xen. AIX and IBM push this pretty hard on their UNIX
servers, where they have a lot of facilities for deploying one off
servers for specific tasks in a virtualized environment.

This can be a big cost saver in terms of hardware if you can balance it
all correctly.

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Ignasi <ignasilucas@gmail.com> wrote:
> I expect between 4 and 10 people to use it at the same time. Most jobs will
> be CPU intensive, but I can also envision some sporadic jobs to require
> several GB of RAM. He also wants to store quite a bit of data there, and
> maybe host a database. I assume that nobody would use it as a desktop, but
> it would be accessed remotely. In principle, the main concern is to make it
> a fast computer.

Have you considered the potential benefits of a number of smaller servers
instead of a single large server? I'm not familiar with exactly what you're
doing, but it be worth investigating.

> I've read a little bit about RAID arrays, but never met anybody who used
> them. I'm interested in those configurations where data is mirrored, so that
> the system can tolerate the failure of one of the disks. And I've been
> warned that if all the disks composing the array are of the same brand and
> design, more than one may fail at the same time. Do you think RAID is worthy
> at all, or not necessary with a good back up system? what is better, an
> operating system RAID controller, or a hardware one?

If the data is considered important, RAID is a must. The data on my home
servers isn't critical and no financial meltdown will occur if I lose
it, but it's
important enough to me that I use RAID at home.

Steven mentioned hot spares. I'm also a big fan of hot spares, as the
failed drive
is automatically replaced by another (hopefully good!) drive and
rebuilding begins
(almost) immediately. Without a hot spare, someone must physically
pull the failed
drive and replace it before rebuilding of the array will begin.
During that time, if
another drive happens to fails, you will (typically) lose data -- this
is dependent on
what type of RAID you're using, however.

Also, and I can't stress this enough: RAID IS NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BACKUPS.

As I said, if a drive in a RAID array fails, you can pull the dead
drive and replace it
without (online) losing any data. Heck, I've done just that less than
an hour ago.
If, however, your data becomes corrupted/accidentally deleted/etc., RAID is not
going to help you out a bit, and you're going to wish you had those backups.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
http://evilrouters.net/
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BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] new big computer for a lab

While backups are important, with any reasonable data set you're going
to lose a lot of time restoring from backups. How many days can you
afford the system to be offline? How many terabytes of data will you
need to restore?

I'm a big fan of RAID arrays with hot-spares. With a hot-spare as soon
as one drive starts failing the system recreates the data on the
hot-spare. It is nice.

I've never set up a system on that sort of scale. With that much money
involved you're probably not even looking at a single server anymore.
There's a reason the big super computers at this point are all massive
clusters.

Since this is going to be in Spain, he's going to need good support.
Linux is popular in Europe -- and for good reason -- and so it should
be relatively easy to find local support.

I really recommend he puts out a request for offers out to local folks
in Spain. The fanciest computer on the planet will do you no good at
all if you can't get good support for it. Ideally, he should be able
to find a nice Spanish company familiar with setup and service of the
size of machine he is planning. (I'm a fan of buying locally --
especially when it comes to service and support.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

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[BLUG] new big computer for a lab

Hello.

A colleague is starting his own biology lab in Spain, and he's planning to spend between 10,000 and 15,000 € in a computer. He asked me what features I think the computer should have. The fact is that I'd like to provide him some useful information, because I expect him to give me a job soon. So, I'd really appreciate your advise. Anything from hardware brands to operating systems will be welcome. Plus, how to spend money in hardware is a subject that also interests me personally. Let me give you some more background about what the computer may be used for.

I expect between 4 and 10 people to use it at the same time. Most jobs will be CPU intensive, but I can also envision some sporadic jobs to require several GB of RAM. He also wants to store quite a bit of data there, and maybe host a database. I assume that nobody would use it as a desktop, but it would be accessed remotely. In principle, the main concern is to make it a fast computer.

I've read a little bit about RAID arrays, but never met anybody who used them. I'm interested in those configurations where data is mirrored, so that the system can tolerate the failure of one of the disks. And I've been warned that if all the disks composing the array are of the same brand and design, more than one may fail at the same time. Do you think RAID is worthy at all, or not necessary with a good back up system? what is better, an operating system RAID controller, or a hardware one?

As a biologist who works with computers, I'd like to learn more about this topics. Feel free to recommend books, magazines, web sites... that I can use to teach myself. Thanks.

Ignasi.

Monday, May 10, 2010

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

Simón Ruiz wrote:

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:

Simón Ruiz wrote:  Of course, my goal was to be free of proprietary software, not just to  have a free Photoshop clone.    Can I ask why you want to be free of proprietary software? I know you're not the only one who feels this way...  Does it relate to moral opinions about selling software? Is it wanting to save money? I can't say I understand this sentiment completely. I can understand open protocols and formats, but everything else is a little unclear to me...  Feel free to speak for just yourself if you aren't inclined to speak on behalf of everybody else :)

 No, it's not about money, or a moral opinion about selling software, really. It's got more to do with freedom

Freedom, how? From what? Do you depend on something currently dominated by an oppressive software company/monopoly?

I'll give this a better thought out and thorough answer later, it deserves that I've just been busy and am currently exhausted.  But it's not so much that buying software is bad. In particular, I pay for games quite a bit—on the Wii, of course—and for Linux, too, when I get the chance.  In fact, I just did.  There's currently (for the next 17 hours or so) a deal going on at http://www.wolfire.com/humble for those of you who like video games.  I've played the World of Goo and Penumbra Overture demos before and they were pretty cool, so when I saw them bundled and offered at name-your-own-price I decided to buy them. (I decided to give them $40, if you're interested, and skewed it so the developers got 75% of that.)  Even if you're not interested in buying video games, go check out the page. Notice, if you will, the average price paid by people broken down by operating system.  Kind of blows out of the water the idea that Free and Open Source folks are generally only in it because they don't want to pay for good software, if you ask me.

-- Joe Auty, NetMusician NetMusician helps musicians, bands and artists create beautiful, professional, custom designed, career-essential websites that are easy to maintain and to integrate with popular social networks. www.netmusician.org joe@netmusician.org

 Simón  _______________________________________________ BLUG mailing list BLUG@linuxfan.com http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

--
Joe Auty, NetMusician

NetMusician helps musicians, bands and artists create beautiful, professional, custom designed, career-essential websites that are easy to maintain and to integrate with popular social networks.
www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
>
> Simón Ruiz wrote:
>
> Of course, my goal was to be free of proprietary software, not just to
>
> have a free Photoshop clone.
>
>
>
> Can I ask why you want to be free of proprietary software? I know you're not the only one who feels this way...
>
> Does it relate to moral opinions about selling software? Is it wanting to save money? I can't say I understand this sentiment completely. I can understand open protocols and formats, but everything else is a little unclear to me...
>
> Feel free to speak for just yourself if you aren't inclined to speak on behalf of everybody else :)

No, it's not about money, or a moral opinion about selling software,
really. It's got more to do with freedom

I'll give this a better thought out and thorough answer later, it
deserves that I've just been busy and am currently exhausted.

But it's not so much that buying software is bad. In particular, I pay
for games quite a bit—on the Wii, of course—and for Linux, too, when I
get the chance.

In fact, I just did.

There's currently (for the next 17 hours or so) a deal going on at
http://www.wolfire.com/humble for those of you who like video games.

I've played the World of Goo and Penumbra Overture demos before and
they were pretty cool, so when I saw them bundled and offered at
name-your-own-price I decided to buy them. (I decided to give them
$40, if you're interested, and skewed it so the developers got 75% of
that.)

Even if you're not interested in buying video games, go check out the
page. Notice, if you will, the average price paid by people broken
down by operating system.

Kind of blows out of the water the idea that Free and Open Source
folks are generally only in it because they don't want to pay for good
software, if you ask me.

> --
> Joe Auty, NetMusician
> NetMusician helps musicians, bands and artists create beautiful, professional, custom designed, career-essential websites that are easy to maintain and to integrate with popular social networks.
> www.netmusician.org
> joe@netmusician.org

Simón

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Sunday, May 9, 2010

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

On Sat, May 08, 2010 at 12:48:25AM -0400, Joe Auty wrote:
>
> Can I ask why you want to be free of proprietary software? I know you're
> not the only one who feels this way...
>
> Does it relate to moral opinions about selling software? Is it wanting
> to save money? I can't say I understand this sentiment completely. I can
> understand open protocols and formats, but everything else is a little
> unclear to me...

To the pedantic, there is a difference between free software and open
source software. The former is most throughly defined by the Free
Software Foundation (the non-technical side of GNU). See here:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Wikipedia has a decent article on open source which includes the 10 part
definition as defined by the Open Source Initiative and refers to the
reality that although some want to separate the two types with laser
precision, there really is very little difference between the two
philsophies as relates to the products or development methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Source_Definition

Richard Stallman, the head of the FSF, is attacked often for his radical
statements and very black-and-white outlook on things, but regardless of
one's opinions of the man, he has done a lot to promote freedom from not
just vendor lock-in, but privacy violations happening at the corporate
and even governtment levels. And while a person may not directly relate
a software model to privacy, they often do intertwine. For more on that,
I would recommended taking a look at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

http://www.eff.org/

--
Jeff

My other computer is an abacus.

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Saturday, May 8, 2010

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

The place you downloaded the Cinepaint RPM from should either also provide the dependancies or provide clues as to where to go.

If you have no luck and can't find the source, the source should be available in Debian/Ubuntu/SimplyMEPIS/etc "pool" directories as tarballls (either tar.bz2 or tar.gz). Debian-style source packaging uses the canonical source archive and a separate set of patches -- all of it save a plain-text control file are standard GNU file formats and so can be subverted for other distributions and purposes. With any luck the source also references the canonical home for the library.

This isn't me pushing a distro, this is me saying I *know* that's a last-ditch location to find the source.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On May 8, 2010 3:43 PM, "Walker W. Townsend" <tzaddi@joink.com> wrote:

>
> In case you aren't aware of it, there is an 8-bpp version of GIMP
> called FilmGimp that is no...
I downloaded the RPM and was able to find and install all the
dependencies save one, "liboyranos.so.0.1.10". Google only listed
earlier versions. Any idea where to procure this one.

Thanks,
Walker

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Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

One thing you have to remember about FreeSoftware is it doesn't speak about price it speaks of the four freedoms. People can choose to sell freesoftware and it still be freesoftware as defined by Richard stallman

Sent from my iPhone

On May 8, 2010, at 12:48 AM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:

Simón Ruiz wrote:
Of course, my goal was to be free of proprietary software, not just to
have a free Photoshop clone.    
Can I ask why you want to be free of proprietary software? I know you're not the only one who feels this way...

Does it relate to moral opinions about selling software? Is it wanting to save money? I can't say I understand this sentiment completely. I can understand open protocols and formats, but everything else is a little unclear to me...

Feel free to speak for just yourself if you aren't inclined to speak on behalf of everybody else :)

--
Joe Auty, NetMusician
<nmtwitter.png>NetMusician helps musicians, bands and artists create beautiful, professional, custom designed, career-essential websites that are easy to maintain and to integrate with popular social networks.
www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org

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Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

>
> In case you aren't aware of it, there is an 8-bpp version of GIMP
> called FilmGimp that is now called Cinepaint. It was made by Hollywood
> programmers who needed to use it in feature films like Little Nikki,
> Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings even.
>
> http://www.cinepaint.org/
>
>
>
I downloaded the RPM and was able to find and install all the
dependencies save one, "liboyranos.so.0.1.10". Google only listed
earlier versions. Any idea where to procure this one.

Thanks,
Walker
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[BLUG] Eiseley (was I don't think Linux ....)

On Sat, 8 May 2010, Mark Krenz wrote:

>
> There is an old story I once heard, perhaps you have too.
>
> A man walks along the beach. The ocean tide has washed thousands of
> starfish up on the beach where they will die in the hot sun. Another
> man is combing the beach and picking up starfish one by one and thowing
> them back in the ocean. The first man approaches the man trying to save
> the starfish and says "Sir, you can't possibly hope to save all these
> starfish". The other man bends over, picks up a starfish, throws it in
> the ocean and says "No, but I just saved that one".

It's called The Star Thrower, by Loren Eiseley, in his
book The Unexpected Universe. http://lccn.loc.gov/84022559

He also has a probably related title
http://lccn.loc.gov/67063808 which I have not seen but will
almost certainly want to own.

Eiseley is admired by readers as disparate as WH Auden,
Theodosius Dobzhansky, and Ray Bradbury; at least one reviewer
puts him in a class with Ralph Waldo Emerson -- but you may find
that that flatters Emerson.

--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
What do they know of country, who only country know?
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Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

Thanks for the Cinepaint link. I've heard good things about it and
that was the reminder that I really do need to check it out. I'm off
to snag the PC Linux OS version now.

On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 03:05:37PM GMT, Erik Wallace [eriktwallace@gmail.com] said the following:
>>
>> But this isn't the show stopper. The show stopper is the fact that Gimp
>> does not support
>> more than 8bits per channel! I'm sorry but it is precisely this sort of
>> shortcoming that
>> separates professional photo software from non-professional.
>
> In case you aren't aware of it, there is an 8-bpp version of GIMP
> called FilmGimp that is now called Cinepaint. It was made by Hollywood
> programmers who needed to use it in feature films like Little Nikki,
> Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings even.
>
> http://www.cinepaint.org/
>
> Actually its a good eye opener to view the Linux in Hollywood PDF
> presentation on that site because you'll probably be amazed by how many
> films have used Linux extensively.
>
> http://www.cinepaint.org/conference/denmark.linuxmovies.2008.pdf
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 03:05:37PM GMT, Erik Wallace [eriktwallace@gmail.com] said the following:
>
> But this isn't the show stopper. The show stopper is the fact that Gimp
> does not support
> more than 8bits per channel! I'm sorry but it is precisely this sort of
> shortcoming that
> separates professional photo software from non-professional.

In case you aren't aware of it, there is an 8-bpp version of GIMP
called FilmGimp that is now called Cinepaint. It was made by Hollywood
programmers who needed to use it in feature films like Little Nikki,
Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings even.

http://www.cinepaint.org/

Actually its a good eye opener to view the Linux in Hollywood PDF
presentation on that site because you'll probably be amazed by how many
films have used Linux extensively.

http://www.cinepaint.org/conference/denmark.linuxmovies.2008.pdf

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Steven Black <yam655@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe that the best open-source software is focused on serving the
> user population before it is focused on serving commercial purposes.

And I have to respectfully disagree. I'm focused on serving
commercial purposes. Why? Because I like having food on my table and
a house to put the table in, along with a decent car (and fuel) to
drive to and from the grocery store, etc. My computers are tools to
make a living, just like a carpenter uses a hammer and saw. Yes, I
want my tools to be comfortable and easy to use. But I also expect
them to a job, and if they don't do that job the way I need, they WILL
be replaced. And in certain applications, commercial software does a
better job.

> I am an open-source advocate as even when it doesn't focus on the
> user-population the way it should (such as GNOME) if there's a great
> fuss it can be forked and the new project can focus on the larger
> user-population.

This is true. But it is also a double-edged sword. There are a
number of projects over the years that have forked, and instead of one
or two really good packages, we end up with 47 packages that almost
sorta kinda work.

> Commercial packages may appear to provide more software features, but
> what you pay is far more than the $120+ for the download. You can't
> send someone usable data files unless they own identical software.

You're going to find that in the photo and video industry, an
overwhelming majority of the workers use the identical software. And
like it or not, it ain't GIMP. Even GIMP developers have stated they
are not shooting for the same audience as Photoshop.

> (Usable does *not* mean flattening a multi-layer image!) You can't

Apparently you're unaware that Photoshop does support formats other
than its own native format. And that includes popular lossless
formats. In fact, its a rarity that I save anything in Photoshop's
native format once I'm finished working on it with Photoshop. There
are better formats.

> We don't need *any* Adobe product. It should shame the Linux community
> that it was Steve Jobs saying they don't need Flash and not the Linux

I swear I mean no personal offense with this, but I'm going to be
honest. Using His Holiness The Pope Saint Steve The First as an
example of what the Linux community should do made me laugh out loud
and almost spit tea on my display. From what I see by his daily
actions, Steve Jobs is to FOSS as British Petroleum is to
environmentally friendly energy production.
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Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 12:13:52PM GMT, Mark Warner [mhwarner@gmail.com] said the following:
> David M. Moore wrote:
> >
> > Having said that, though, I will say there is one thing that could
> > happen that could radically change that possibility over a very short
> > period of time. If Adobe would release a version of CS5 Master
> > Collection that ran natively on Linux, that could be the first nail in
> > Windows' coffin. If you look at any poll on the most wanted commercial
> > application for Linux, what ever the current version of Photoshop and
> > Premier is when the poll is taken is the winner every time. That could
> > be a serious game changer.
>
> Same for Quickbooks. That would make it a viable alternative in many
> small businesses.
>

It might be interesting for you to hear some feedback about how open
source desktop apps are being used professionally.

Marina (my wife who does web design/development at Suso) uses GIMP
professionally and says that there are some things that GIMP doesn't do
as well as Photoshop like fonts and various functionality that Photoshop
has for making buttons, drop shadows, etc. Sure, there are ways of
doing the extravagant things manually, but Photoshop already has lots of
builtin templates and plugins for quickly making these things. For GIMP
to do it would just be a matter of someone putting in the time to make
professional looking template packs and plugins or something. But few
people have and a lot of what is out there is very amaturish and they
are not organized well

Actually, I think this is what is missing from open source in general.
Professional libraries, templates and plugin packs for apps like GIMP,
Inkscape, Dia, Blender, etc. These things are simply a time saver so
that businesses see the competitive edge of using one software package
over another.

I remember back in the 90s (maybe its still the case) the different
office suites would make a big deal about how much clip art they had,
this was a big deal because so many people where using them for
brocheres, etc. and not having to buy extra clip art would be money
saved.

Suso uses Gnucash and so does my mother-in-law's new alterations
business in the mall. When she opened it up she bought a laptop and
decided to just use Windows 7, but when I said that we could get
Quickbooks or something for it if she wanted, she said she was
comfortable with Gnucash already because she had helped us at Suso.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Friday, May 7, 2010

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

Simón Ruiz wrote:

Of course, my goal was to be free of proprietary software, not just to
have a free Photoshop clone.    

Can I ask why you want to be free of proprietary software? I know you're not the only one who feels this way...

Does it relate to moral opinions about selling software? Is it wanting to save money? I can't say I understand this sentiment completely. I can understand open protocols and formats, but everything else is a little unclear to me...

Feel free to speak for just yourself if you aren't inclined to speak on behalf of everybody else :)

--
Joe Auty, NetMusician

Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

There is an old story I once heard, perhaps you have too.

A man walks along the beach. The ocean tide has washed thousands of
starfish up on the beach where they will die in the hot sun. Another
man is combing the beach and picking up starfish one by one and thowing
them back in the ocean. The first man approaches the man trying to save
the starfish and says "Sir, you can't possibly hope to save all these
starfish". The other man bends over, picks up a starfish, throws it in
the ocean and says "No, but I just saved that one".

Interestingly this story has much more impact when it relates to
something like using open software than its usual motivational purposes
because the benefits can be reaped by the individual immediately instead
of requiring large group participation. The point that I wanted to make
with the story is at what point do you put the bar for desktop software
being successful or not. Some people thinks it has something to do with
how many people you convert to it. I think its more on an individual
basis and one person being successful with their own switch. Not all who
make the switch are going to like it, some are fine where they are at.
Some can't decide what they want to do and the moment you save them,
they get washed back up on the shore. Fine, whatever. People are all
different and there is no stopping that, but the fact that they are
different is what should drive them more towards openness and
flexibility, doesn't matter if its Linux, Mac, Windows, BSD, Solaris,
etc....

Just three weeks ago, I switched to using XFCE4 because I got tired
of issues with Gnome Terminal, so I started using XFCE4-terminal (which
is excellent by the way), then I decided to give XFCE another go because
I had tried it before and thought it was nice, but it wasn't quite there
last time I tried it. This time, I've been thoroughly satisfied with it
and haven't found anything that would make me switch back, so I think
I'm an XFCE convert now. You just got to give yourself time and a
reason to adjust.

The whole experience of switching between desktops within Linux
reminded me once again of why I use it to begin with. Choice. It really
is all about having the ability to choose how I want to use my computer
damnit. If I want my windows to have 15 operation buttons in the title
bar or none at all, that's up to me. If I want 100 virtual desktops that
wrap around or a taskbar or panel buttons that can have their behavior
changed, by george I better be able to do that. If Windows or Mac were a
more open environment that allowed these levels of customization then I
might be more for using them, but they don't. And in a world where
people express themselves and their choices in their cars, houses,
refrigerators, clothes and everything else, it always puzzles me why
they settled for such conformity with their desktop environment.

Mark

On Wed, May 05, 2010 at 01:17:07AM GMT, Joe Auty [joe@netmusician.org] said the following:
> I know this is sort of troll-like, but I do mean this in a constructive
> way. I've wanted Linux to be ready for the Desktop, but I just don't
> think it will ever get there. At what point does it make sense to just
> focus on using Linux on servers and give up on using it as a Desktop OS?
>
> The failings of Ubuntu, in my personal experience, largely don't have
> much to do with Linux itself, but with the general ecosystem. As of
> right now my ethernet controller just randomly panics and I can't do
> anything to restore network connectivity but restarting my machine. This
> is clearly documented in a bug report on Launchpad, this is a known and
> confirmed issue. The update to Ubuntu 10.04 broke LIRC for me - also a
> documented and known issue. I'm also getting random problems preventing
> DVDs from working with messages logged along the lines of the DVD being
> resized (I've had this problem off and on for ages). I've encountered
> reports of other people having the same problem. The NVidia drivers
> randomly cause XOrg to crash. I haven't had this problem in 10.04 yet,
> but the weakness of these drivers have been documented too, hence
> Nouveau except it doesn't have 3D acceleration yet. The 64 bit version
> of Flash doesn't support fullscreen video properly. The 9.10 update (if
> memory serves) partially crippled LIRC for me in using my IR blaster.
> Shared printing broke in Ubuntu 9.10, and SMB printer browsing randomly
> broke for me too. I can print to my shared printer when I restart SMB
> and enter its name manually. I've had file system corruption with ext4.
> It literally seems like more stuff is broken than is not, I've always
> had something or another broken, and maybe I'm anal, but I like having
> stuff work.
>
> None of this touches on the various usability problems I've encountered
> or problems I had some time ago, these are all just recent problems.
> Like I said, most of these have been documented and acknowledged. A
> couple might be fixed in the 2.6.33 kernels, but I've been unable to get
> sound the the NVidia driver to work in these kernels last time I tried.
> Like I said, I realize that Linux itself is not to blame for all of
> this. I appreciate something like LIRC existing pretty cool, I'm willing
> to overlook some problems.
>
> What is difficult to overlook is the constant regression and coin flip
> as to what will go wrong whenever I update. I should not have to wipe
> and reinstall an OS in 2010 as a troubleshooting technique, the idea of
> bit rot or some sort of corruption is weird voodoo, and it is most
> frustrating when I go ahead and do something like this anyway only for
> it not to make a difference anyway.
>
> So, it's 2010. We've been hoping that Desktop Linux will be more
> bulletproof for a long time now, it's just not there. Monitor
> arrangement is nowhere near as solid as its been on the Mac since
> probably the 1990s or something. The commitment from vendors like
> NVidia, ATI, Adobe, and probably many others is just not there. I'm sure
> some progress will be made, but it is so far away from being an OS that
> Grandma can use that it's laughable. Yes, one can setup a rig for
> Grandma for specific tasks and she can never update it, and yes Desktop
> Linux can be functional in some cases, but how about Grandma or even Mom
> being self sufficient like some can approach being with Windows or OS X?
>
>
> Is there any reason why I should not give up on Desktop Linux, guys? I
> don't mean to be troll-ish at all, I'm a very heavy Linux/BSD user, I
> like the idea of consolidating on Linux for my day-to-day use, I'm
> rooting for it. But, it is what it is. Is there a point where it's just
> a complete waste of effort to expend more resources into Desktop Linux?
> Now that I'm a full-time freelancer, I certainly don't have as much
> interest as I used to in fiddling with Linux for my entertainment
> purposes, it's just a huge time sink.
>
>
>
> --
> Joe Auty, NetMusician
> NetMusician helps musicians, bands and artists create beautiful,
> professional, custom designed, career-essential websites that are easy
> to maintain and to integrate with popular social networks.
> www.netmusician.org <http://www.netmusician.org>
> joe@netmusician.org <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>
>

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Re: [BLUG] I don't think Linux will ever be ready for the Desktop

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Erik Wallace <eriktwallace@gmail.com> wrote:
>> My big problem with the Gimp is that all the little windows are really
>> old-fashioned. I'm used to environments where I don't need to manually
>> move windows around and then still not get the windows placed in a
>> manner I can use them all at once without my desktop showing through.
>> A minor annoyance to be sure, but an annoyance to be sure.
>
> I agree that the independent windows are old fashioned. Gimpshop actually
> has
> this thing called a "deweirdifier" which takes care of this problem (in the
> windows
> version at least). If I really wanted to, I could install an older version
> of Gimp
> and use gimpshop with it, but I still wouldn't have the 12/16 bit per
> channel capability.
>
>> I suspect none of the developers have considered it important. The
>> advantage of open-source software is that you can check to see if it
>> is on the list of things that will ever happen, and if no one has
>> thought of it you can provide the idea.
>
> Well at least according to the FAQ on the Gimp webpage, it has been on their
> list for
> quite a while, and they claimed it would be ready when version 2.4 came
> out. We are
> at version 2.6! I really think they should ditch all other adjustments to
> the program,
> and focus on this problem, as well as borrowing the gimpshop idea, with the
> deweirdifier, as a standard part of the program. At this point, that's
> pretty much all
> they need to do to become competitive with photoshop.
>
> But I started my previous comments by saying how much I like Ubuntu, and
> Linux in
> general. In addition to what people have already said, one thing I love
> about it
> is the ease of using latex! Installing latex packages in Windows was always
> a chore.
> In linux, I just install texlive! And, compiling PDF's is also easier. So,
> when it comes
> down to it, I boot into Linux the vast majority of the time, and boot into
> windows only
> when I need to use photoshop.
>
> -Erik

I agree that the GIMP could stand to get certain features, like
greater (or arbitrary) color depth, and CMYK color spaces. I don't
feel a particular need for them myself, in my everyday use, but I
would appreciate knowing they're there.

Particularly arbitrary color depth because I have a DSLR that take
photos in RAW; however, even when I used Photoshop, I had to render it
to 8bit color before I could do anything with it, so I don't feel a
loss working that way now.

As Free Software, they can never afford to pay for proprietary color
space licenses, though, so they will never compete with Photoshop in
the commercial printing arena, I don't think, but I don't think that's
really the goal.

I disagree that the GIMP needs to change it's interface to become a
Photoshop clone. If enough people were that enthusiastic about copying
the Photoshop structure in GIMP, I assume, the GIMPshop would be a
more successful project.

I used to be a Photoshop user before I started using Linux and, at the
time that I started divesting myself of proprietary software
addictions, I did use GIMPshop. But, while it put the menus in
generally familiar areas, it didn't behave enough like Photoshop for
that to help too much.

The GIMP is a different program, and simply mixing the menus around
doesn't change that.

I quickly gave up on the idea of having a "Photoshop clone", and
started using the GIMP as it came pre-installed and frankly that
helped me get over the learning curve faster because it wasn't quite
so easy to expect it to behave like Photoshop once I stopped asking it
to play dress up as Photoshop.

Of course, my goal was to be free of proprietary software, not just to
have a free Photoshop clone.

And my livelihood does not depend on image manipulation, so I don't
really *need* any of the things that Photoshop does that the GIMP
doesn't, and it's entirely not worth the license price tag to me.

Simón

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