Saturday, September 15, 2007

RE: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

Joe Auty wrote:
> Which sort of distribution do you prefer for servers, and why?
> What are your general recommendations these days?

I run RHEL on just about everything, with a couple of exceptions:

- DB server: Gentoo (think optimized, stripped down install -- I want as
much performance as possible outta that box).
- Syslog server: Debian (stripped down install -- would've been Gentoo
but I wasn't messing w/ it at the time that box was set up).

That's assuming you're referring to production servers, of course.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College of Indiana
812.330.6156 (w) 812.330.6212 (f)


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[BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

It would seem to me that the strengths of a package based distro like
Ubuntu or Red Hat is the speed and ease in which software can be
updated, machines can be rebuilt/deployed. However, if you need certain
non-default command line options enabled with your software, you are
left to hunting down a non-Red Hat RPM or building one on your own. This
I'm not such a big fan of, since I'm not sure which non-Red Hat RPMs can
be safely trusted, and plus it is a PITA. I'm assuming this same sort of
thing applies to Ubuntu Server, but I'm not all that familiar with
apt-get just yet...

The advantage of a source based distribution seems to be that custom
build options are easier, software might be a little more optimized for
your hardware once compiled on the host hardware, but building software
takes time, and if your production server has a high load, it's best not
to build on the server. Some source based distributions support
packages/binaries, but in my experience under FreeBSD they are often
missing.

Of the source distributions, I have to say that while I've given Gentoo
a lot of my time, I prefer FreeBSD. I have been debating the possibility
of migrating from FreeBSD to Linux on my server, but I really can't come
up with a good justification.

Which sort of distribution do you prefer for servers, and why? What are
your general recommendations these days?

--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 15/09/2007, Michael Schultheiss <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
> Michel Salim wrote:
> > I feel your pain. LILO! Not aware that any distribution still ships it
> > by default, on most platforms anyway (I believe it's still needed on
> > Itaniums).
>
> Itaniums use ELILO which is a different beast. They also use EFI
> instead of the PC type BIOS. I believe the new Macs also use EFI and
> may use ELILO for Linux asx well.

I don't think any distribution is currently using ELILO on Intel Macs,
AFAIK -- would be nice when they do, and use the GPT partition table
natively. I think Intel's Santa Rosa platform also comes with EFI
instead of BIOS (but with BIOS emulation turned on by default,
naturally), so hopefully there'll be a critical mass of machines soon
(that, or someone ships a souped-up version of OLPC, with the
even-nicer OpenFirmware + LinuxBIOS)

> > RPM has its quirks, though it does have some features DPKG does not
> > (dependencies on files, e.g. a package can say "I need
> > /usr/sbin/useradd").
>
> I absolutely hate that. I have to work with RPMs at work and I recently
> changed our dependencies to be totally package based. I can't say "I
> want version foo of /usr/sbin/useradd" but can say "I need shadow-utils
> >= XYZ"
Yeah, it's mostly useful for third-party upstream packagers, I guess.
If they want to release a single RPM that will install on multiple
RPM-based distros, and thus cannot rely on a particular package name
..

Fedora uses package- and virtual-package dependencies (almost?)
exclusively, as far as I know.

--
Michel
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Michel Salim wrote:
> On 15/09/2007, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But a lot of stuff that I don't yet know too much about also has high
>> weight in the test. I need to learn my way around RPMs, LILO, and all
>> the "GNU and Unix commands".
>
> Presumably you are using VMware or Xen to run one or two RPM-based
> distros? (or have multiple physical machines -- lucky you!)
>

VMware Player and a virtual Fedora 7 machine.

I do have multiple physical machines. They're just mostly collecting
dust in a closet. IBM PC, anyone? ;-)
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Michael Schultheiss wrote:
> Simón Ruiz wrote:
>> I also understand that it's been updated, at least since 1998.
>> "Configuring Communications Devices" has a weight of 1 while "Use
>> Debian Package Management" has a weight of 8 (out of 8).
>
> w00t
>
> One of my other FLOSS hats is Debian Developer :)

Sorry to say it, but "Use Red Hat Package Manager", also has a weight of
8/8, and nothing has a weight of 7/8. So I can tell that those two will
both be tested rigorously and above and beyond anything else.
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Michel Salim wrote:
> I feel your pain. LILO! Not aware that any distribution still ships it
> by default, on most platforms anyway (I believe it's still needed on
> Itaniums).

Itaniums use ELILO which is a different beast. They also use EFI
instead of the PC type BIOS. I believe the new Macs also use EFI and
may use ELILO for Linux asx well.

>
> RPM has its quirks, though it does have some features DPKG does not
> (dependencies on files, e.g. a package can say "I need
> /usr/sbin/useradd").

I absolutely hate that. I have to work with RPMs at work and I recently
changed our dependencies to be totally package based. I can't say "I
want version foo of /usr/sbin/useradd" but can say "I need shadow-utils
>= XYZ"
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> I also understand that it's been updated, at least since 1998.
> "Configuring Communications Devices" has a weight of 1 while "Use
> Debian Package Management" has a weight of 8 (out of 8).

w00t

One of my other FLOSS hats is Debian Developer :)

--
----------------------------
Michael Schultheiss
E-mail: schultmc@debian.org
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 15/09/2007, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:

> But a lot of stuff that I don't yet know too much about also has high
> weight in the test. I need to learn my way around RPMs, LILO, and all
> the "GNU and Unix commands".
>
I feel your pain. LILO! Not aware that any distribution still ships it
by default, on most platforms anyway (I believe it's still needed on
Itaniums).

RPM has its quirks, though it does have some features DPKG does not
(dependencies on files, e.g. a package can say "I need
/usr/sbin/useradd"). Conversely, DPKG has "Suggest" (optional
dependencies) and the ability to re-run post-installation
configuration steps. Red Hat's yum is getting close to Apt in speed,
and SUSE's zypper is getting better too (in 10.3, zypper on 10.2 is
rubbish).. and RPM does multi-lib, of course.

Presumably you are using VMware or Xen to run one or two RPM-based
distros? (or have multiple physical machines -- lucky you!)

--
Michel

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 15/09/2007, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:

> P.S. C-pound? C-sharp? C-plusplusplusplus?

C-Java! Or Java++ . One of those things I'm glad that Microsoft has
written, it jolts Sun out of complacency.

--
Michel "happy to finally see a 64-bit Java browser plug-in, courtesy
of Red Hat and the OSS community"

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

I'm going through O'Reilly's "LPI Linux Ceritification in a nutshell"
and, indeed, man pages. I'll also be taking the "LPI Cram Session"
class at the "Ohio LinuxFest University" two days before the exam.

I don't really have an expectation one way or another on whether I
will pass this time.

On one hand, I don't have the 2 years of System Administration they
designed the exam for. On the other hand, I think I've learned my way
around pretty quickly, I've got years of practice taking standardized
tests in school (I'd say I have a knack for them), and I'm dedicated.

I don't know if I'll pass this time, but I know I will pass. If I
don't succeed, I will try again.

I also understand that it's been updated, at least since 1998.
"Configuring Communications Devices" has a weight of 1 while "Use
Debian Package Management" has a weight of 8 (out of 8).

But a lot of stuff that I don't yet know too much about also has high
weight in the test. I need to learn my way around RPMs, LILO, and all
the "GNU and Unix commands".

I'm quite aware that it won't be a walk in the park. But then if it
were, getting the Certification wouldn't mean anything. I'm going for
the cert to improve myself, it'd be disappointing if it was easy. ;-)

Simón

On 9/15/07, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> Welcome to the dark side. A good preperation for that exam is to read
> the man pages for all the commands. And I mean all of them. You almost
> can't study for that exam, it is a challenge for even those that have
> mastered the commands and it will kick the ass of anyone who doesn't
> know them. For instance, it will ask things like what does ls -f do.
> How many of you know without looking it up? And then it asks questions
> like what does chown -r do? To which the answer is nothing because
> there is no such option but of course they have the option for do the
> chown recursively there. -R does the operation recursively.
>
> I don't mean to scare you but you should have an idea about it not
> being a walk in the park. When I took it in 2004, some of the questions
> were very dated, showing that it had been written in 1998 or so and
> hadn't been updated, so you should expect to see questions about various
> dialup software.
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 05:36:58AM GMT, Simón Ruiz [simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com] said the following:
>
> It's amazing how geeky my studying is these days, I can't really talk
> to anyone but my boss and my fellow LUG/LoCo people about it. Java...
> Python... and I'm studying to take my LPI 101 exam at the Ohio
> LinuxFest this year. (And, oh, yeah, I'll also need to get over my
> command-line text editor block, cause vi(m) is on the exam. Hoorah!
> :-) )
>

Welcome to the dark side. A good preperation for that exam is to read
the man pages for all the commands. And I mean all of them. You almost
can't study for that exam, it is a challenge for even those that have
mastered the commands and it will kick the ass of anyone who doesn't
know them. For instance, it will ask things like what does ls -f do.
How many of you know without looking it up? And then it asks questions
like what does chown -r do? To which the answer is nothing because
there is no such option but of course they have the option for do the
chown recursively there. -R does the operation recursively.

I don't mean to scare you but you should have an idea about it not
being a walk in the park. When I took it in 2004, some of the questions
were very dated, showing that it had been written in 1998 or so and
hadn't been updated, so you should expect to see questions about various
dialup software.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

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