[BLUG] Fwd: Want to contribute and meet with group

Hi Blug-owner,

I am subscribing to the listserv, but I have not been able to figure
out when or where you meet. I heard that you meet twice a month.

I recently migrated to Linux (Ubuntu) and would like to participate in
the Bloomington group. There is still a lot I am learning about (not
all my drivers are up), but I also am working on a Perl program that
generates an SVG graph (x,y, with z binned) based on x,y,z input data.
The output is editable in Inkscape. So maybe the knowledge I am gaining
would allow me to contribute something as well. One thing I'd like to
learn is how/if it is possible to port what I am doing to something
else, or what is the best way to make it available to the community.

Marc

http://www.bio.indiana.edu/~watsonlab/marc.htm
--
Marc Bogonovich phone: (812) 855-7804
Department of Biology FAX: (812) 855-6705
1001 East Third Street email:
mbogonov@indiana.edu
Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405

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Re: [BLUG] GLText

Is GLtext an xscreensavers screen saver? If so, you can use the
xscreensavers configuration tool to configure it. (Or modify the
configuration file by hand.)

In GNOME they've decided that changing the settings of screen savers
is too complex for their users. No screen savers have any direct
configurations. (This is another thing in KDE's favor, IMO. KDE doesn't
expect the users to be total idiots.)

Abhishek is correct in that the only way to change the configuration is
to modify the .desktop file and change the arguments being passed in. My
recommendation, though, is that you copy the file and make the changes
in your copy. This will prevent your changes from being destroyed when
you perform an OS update.

It should even be possible to use this as a tool to understand how to
create packages for your system. You have a dependancy and a file that
needs placed in the proper place. You can't get much simpler.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 07:18:12PM -0600, Abhishek Kulkarni wrote:
> You can pass a number of arguments to glText to customize it (and changing the
> text is one of them)
> Check man 6 gltext.
>
> You can locate the gltext screensaver file (usually at /usr/share/applications/
> screensavers/gltext.desktop)
> and change the Exec= flag to pass in the text as an argument to gltext.
>
> HTH,
> --ab
>
> On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Paul Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> How do you change the text in this screen saver?
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
>

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Re: [BLUG] GLText

You can pass a number of arguments to glText to customize it (and changing the text is one of them)
Check man 6 gltext.

You can locate the gltext screensaver file (usually at /usr/share/applications/screensavers/gltext.desktop)
and change the Exec= flag to pass in the text as an argument to gltext.

HTH,
 --ab

On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Paul Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi,

How do you change the text in this screen saver?

Thanks,

Paul

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[BLUG] GLText

Hi,

How do you change the text in this screen saver?

Thanks,

Paul

Re: [BLUG] New OS

Yes, some initial area of the kernel needs to be on known good RAM.
I do not disagree here.

But how much is really needed?

You talk like the space the kernel itself sits on doesn't also get
allocated. It is true, it doesn't get allocated in a traditional
sense, it gets claimed (there is no asking), but it is also true
that there is flexability in the physical address spaces used.
The kernel itself uses memory mapping.

This means that:
1. Unless you're using an OpenBIOS, there is no way to get your
BIOS to know about your bad RAM. RAM shadowing the BIOS at
bootup needs to be good.
2. The BIOS loads the boot sector from the fixed disk. This
512 bytes needs to land on a good region of RAM.
GRUB calls this "stage1".
3. Logic to read the filesystem and continue booting needs to
find a good region of RAM. GRUB calls this "stage 1.5".
4. The core boot manager logic also needs to land on a good
region of RAM. This probably couldn't be worked around
because it is where the configuration is processed --
by the time you knew that you wanted to skip a region, you
may already be using it.

Now the kernel hasn't been booted. We're not using any protected mode
features. Memory hasn't been mapped. These are the only regions that
need to be on good RAM, and they all fit in less than 1M.

I did a quick read of the multiboot standard
( http://www.uruk.org/orig-grub/boot-proposal.html ) and while for
non-ELF kernels there may be a need to be loaded them at specific address
spaces, for ELF-based kernels, the kernel is entirely in 32-bit mode
and appears to get mapped similarly to any other application. The boot
loader itself could use the same technique I described earlier, though
it would want to pass this information via the kernel command-line to
the kernel's BadRAM module.

Do I think this happened in Simón's case? No, not really.

In Simón's case, I suspect all the code address space was fine, and it
was caught in memory allocation. Whether this was memory allocation for
the kernel, or memory allocation for a user-mode application doesn't
matter. The kernel is up and can deal with it appropriate at that point.

Think about it. Assuming initrd and the kernel (sans modules) needs to
land on safe RAM, that's what? 4M? 16M? We've reached a state where 4G
of RAM isn't uncommon for a laptop machine, let alone a desktop.

It isn't absurd that the core OS landed on good address space. If we're
at a point where it is quite possible the only RAM that needs to be
known good is less than 0.09% of the total, then it is only barely
playing the odds. (That number comes from 4M, with a 4G total. Assuming
these numbers unrealistic, 16M in 1G is only 1.56%.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Shei, Shing-Shong wrote:
> Abhishek,
>
> Like I said, either the OS or memtest86+ needs to have a known to be
> good area to start with. They won't even be able to function properly
> if the memory they loaded into are bad.
>
> Shing-Shong
>
>
> > True, but what if the kernel already knows that it's a bad memory
> > block. It can allocate the bad memory blocks so that they are not
> > handed out to the userspace programs, thus effectively disabling them.
> > That's exactly how BadRAM works. Coupled with memtest86+, this can be
> > a way around defective RAM modules, albeit not in all cases. The
> > supporting ideology for this is -- Why throw away a chip with a few
> > faulty bits when the kernel can offer you a way around it?
> >
> > Patches for this are already into the mainline kernel
> > http://lwn.net/Articles/274649/
> >
> > -- Abhishek
> >
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] New OS

Abhishek,

Like I said, either the OS or memtest86+ needs to have a known to be
good area to start with. They won't even be able to function properly
if the memory they loaded into are bad.

Shing-Shong

> True, but what if the kernel already knows that it's a bad memory
> block. It can allocate the bad memory blocks so that they are not
> handed out to the userspace programs, thus effectively disabling them.
> That's exactly how BadRAM works. Coupled with memtest86+, this can be
> a way around defective RAM modules, albeit not in all cases. The
> supporting ideology for this is -- Why throw away a chip with a few
> faulty bits when the kernel can offer you a way around it?
>
> Patches for this are already into the mainline kernel
> http://lwn.net/Articles/274649/
>
> -- Abhishek
>
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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Did someone say "Nexuiz?" :)

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> I am afraid that this is not a correct assumption. Different OSes has
>> different way of allocating/using memory. Probably it's just lucky that
>> Ubuntu had not touched the bad memory block. --SS
>>
>
> I most certainly concede "perhaps", as I definitely don't know what
> I'm talking about with any certainty.
>
> I find "probably" too strong a word, though.
>
> You see, I'm a memory hog and find myself regularly forcing Ubuntu to
> swap if I'm in a system with less than 2GB of memory.
>
> I played memory-intense 3-D games (Nexuiz, anyone?) and routinely ran
> the GIMP on many large photos at once, while keeping Firefox open with
> my customary zillion tabs.
>
> If Ubuntu didn't touch the bad memory blocks, I find design more
> probable than luck.
>
> Though I do concede that I don't really know what I'm talking about.
>
> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

True, but what if the kernel already knows that it's a bad memory block. It can allocate the bad memory blocks so that they are not handed out to the userspace programs, thus effectively disabling them. That's exactly how BadRAM works. Coupled with memtest86+, this can be a way around defective RAM modules, albeit not in all cases. The supporting ideology for this is -- Why throw away a chip with a few faulty bits when the kernel can offer you a way around it?

Patches for this are already into the mainline kernel
http://lwn.net/Articles/274649/

 -- Abhishek

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 6:54 AM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

It's safer for the OS to panic than continuing to operate.  Here you are
assuming that the memory where OS is sitting on are good.  If this is
indeed the case, then it might be okay to mask the known to be bad ones
out just like those done for disks.  But if unfortunately the bad ones
occur in the area mapped to the kernel (say in the interrupt handling
routines, in the routine that clears the RAM, etc.), ...

Cheers,
Shing-Shong

> Such a task doesn't even seem all that complex in theory. Presumably
> Simón was using paritied RAM, (or some other type of RAM that can
> signal errors). Such RAM throws an NMI (non-maskable interrupt) when an
> error is encountered. Traditional OSes panic at this point. However,
> there is no reason why it has to panic. You know where the error is now,
> so turn off that RAM and keep going.
>
> The theory of operation is sound. It doesn't require RAM to be scanned
> before allocation. (If you clear the RAM when you allocate it, and catch
> the error then, that should be good enough for the general case.)
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

It's safer for the OS to panic than continuing to operate. Here you are
assuming that the memory where OS is sitting on are good. If this is
indeed the case, then it might be okay to mask the known to be bad ones
out just like those done for disks. But if unfortunately the bad ones
occur in the area mapped to the kernel (say in the interrupt handling
routines, in the routine that clears the RAM, etc.), ...

Cheers,
Shing-Shong

> Such a task doesn't even seem all that complex in theory. Presumably
> Simón was using paritied RAM, (or some other type of RAM that can
> signal errors). Such RAM throws an NMI (non-maskable interrupt) when an
> error is encountered. Traditional OSes panic at this point. However,
> there is no reason why it has to panic. You know where the error is now,
> so turn off that RAM and keep going.
>
> The theory of operation is sound. It doesn't require RAM to be scanned
> before allocation. (If you clear the RAM when you allocate it, and catch
> the error then, that should be good enough for the general case.)
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Let me rephrase it -- if the bad memory block is mapped to the kernel
space, then it certainly will cause the OS to crash. If the same part
of the memory is mapped to the user space, probably it just caused some
program or programs to crash (or continue to run, depending on how the
area is used.) If it's just used to store couple variables, you might
just notice the program behaves strangely. You might not even notice
any problem if the variables are not used frequently. But if it's used
for memory address redirection, it might point to a la-la land and
causes the program to seg fault. Then again, if you are lucky enough,
it might be redirect to an address that does not do much harm. --SS
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> I am afraid that this is not a correct assumption. Different OSes has
>> different way of allocating/using memory. Probably it's just lucky that
>> Ubuntu had not touched the bad memory block. --SS
>>
>
> I most certainly concede "perhaps", as I definitely don't know what
> I'm talking about with any certainty.
>
> I find "probably" too strong a word, though.
>
> You see, I'm a memory hog and find myself regularly forcing Ubuntu to
> swap if I'm in a system with less than 2GB of memory.
>
> I played memory-intense 3-D games (Nexuiz, anyone?) and routinely ran
> the GIMP on many large photos at once, while keeping Firefox open with
> my customary zillion tabs.
>
> If Ubuntu didn't touch the bad memory blocks, I find design more
> probable than luck.
>
> Though I do concede that I don't really know what I'm talking about.
>
> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

I must apologize, but I feel that it may be a bad assumption to assume
that just because the problem sounds difficult that it hasn't been done.

Simón may not remember clearly, but at the time he was saying that
there was a single line in the kernel logs that made a reference to the
bad RAM.

Such a task doesn't even seem all that complex in theory. Presumably
Simón was using paritied RAM, (or some other type of RAM that can
signal errors). Such RAM throws an NMI (non-maskable interrupt) when an
error is encountered. Traditional OSes panic at this point. However,
there is no reason why it has to panic. You know where the error is now,
so turn off that RAM and keep going.

The theory of operation is sound. It doesn't require RAM to be scanned
before allocation. (If you clear the RAM when you allocate it, and catch
the error then, that should be good enough for the general case.)

More importantly, it is backed up with experience which fits. Simón
knows he worked his machine hard enough he was certain it wasn't the
RAM. I know Simón told me when he looked for it, he found a note in his
kernel log.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 03:48:51PM -0400, Shei, Shing-Shong wrote:
> I am afraid that this is not a correct assumption. Different OSes has
> different way of allocating/using memory. Probably it's just lucky that
> Ubuntu had not touched the bad memory block. --SS
>
> > On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
> >> steered around them"? --SS
> >>
> >
> > I simply mean that with that particular stick of damaged memory I ran
> > Ubuntu perfectly fine without rebooting for several weeks, and with
> > the same damaged stick Windows XP couldn't even finish installing (or
> > boot when I got it installed using other memory).
> >
> > Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
> > kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.
> >
> > Simón
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

RE: [BLUG] New OS

Some of the requirement question hinges on what you expect the box to do. I have a terminal server machine that does intranet DNS, SSH, and mail collection. I only connect to the machine from other machines, so it doesn't need to do anything with video. It runs on a Cyrix (think Pentium II) processor at 200MHz. It has 128MB of memory (I splurged). In total I'm using about 2G of storage, half of which is mail. The video card is a 256k trident card.

This is atypical of course. My desktop machines run 256MB or more, and 1000Mhz or better Processors.

My work machine is a 2.1GHz Core2 duo machine with 1G of ram. I'm only using about 10GB of hard drive space. The video card is an NVIDIA 7300 256MB. I'm using NVIDIA's driver to get better, faster 3D video.

Linux will run on lots of hardware. Just set your expectations in accordance. Generally, Linux will meet and beat your expectations with a little time.

Jeffery

--
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Software Test Engineer
IU Cyclotron Facility
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Work (812) 856-1165
Home (812) 219-5061

> -----Original Message-----
> From: blug-bounces@cs.indiana.edu [mailto:blug-bounces@cs.indiana.edu]
> On Behalf Of Paul Proctor
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 8:33 PM
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] New OS
>
> Hi,
> Got at least three machines not on the router. A newer Dell an old Dell
> 8100
> and an old Compaq. My guess is you have to be more concerned about
> hardware
> than in Windows. I have heard rumors about things like monitor fires.
> Is
> this true?? I live in Ellettsville so download speed with Comcast is
> OK.
> Burning ISO's are not a problem either. What about processor speed and
> memory mimium requirements? Is an AMD processor OK? What about HD
> preperation? Can I start with a FAT32 partition or NTFS? How about no
> partition at all?
> Thanks for the links I will get Ubuntu ISO ASAP, check my homeowners
> insurance and load it on one soon. Any preference of my available
> machines?
> Thanx,
> Paul
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Simón Ruiz" <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 1:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] New OS
>
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > Well, so an install would be your first step.
> >
> > If your hobby is PC building I'm guessing that, like me, you've got
> > more than one computer laying around, huh? Pick one to play with and
> > install some flavor of Linux on it.
> >
> > Now, I'm a little biased since I'm pretty active in Ubuntu's Indiana
> > Local Community (LoCo), but I think Ubuntu is a great starting place.
> >
> > Are you comfortable downloading and burning CD-ROM .iso images? If
> so,
> > head on over to <http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download>. If you're
> > in Bloomington, you'll most likely get the fastest possible download
> > from the "ftp.ussg.iu.edu" option.
> >
> > I think, like me, that you'll find that installing Ubuntu is a LOT
> > easier and faster than installing XP. Not to mention, it comes
> > pre-loaded with a lot of the software you'd end up having to install
> > yourself after a Windows install.
> >
> > Plus, you don't need to worry about setting up virus scanners,
> malware
> > removers, or a firewall except in special circumstances (e.g., we
> have
> > a virus checker running on our file server and mail server at work
> not
> > so the servers are protected from virii, but so our users running
> > Windows are).
> >
> > A note on hardware, especially since you build your own:
> > Unfortunately, most hardware manufacturers only worry about making
> > sure their hardware runs on Windows and the open source community is
> > left to their own devices as far as getting it to run on any other
> OS.
> >
> > This means that some of the latest hardware may take a bit of extra
> > work to get running, or is functionally limited, under Linux. So most
> > of us who build systems with the intent of installing Linux on them
> > need to do the research to know what is and isn't supported yet.
> > (Nothing is more irritating that buying a piece of hardware, plugging
> > it in, and finding out that you aren't getting full functionality out
> > of it right now.)
> >
> > On the other hand, for 95% of the hardware out there you won't need
> to
> > go find drivers for it, since it'll be supported right out of the
> box.
> > On Ubuntu, there's a "restricted drivers manager" (under System ->
> > Administration -> Hardware Drivers) that will go out and
> automatically
> > download and set up the extra drivers that are unable to be included
> > automatically due to intellectual property concerns, covering another
> > 4% of the possibilities.
> >
> > It's in that 1% of cases (or more, if you like buying on the cutting
> > edge) that this can be a real pain.
> >
> > (NOTE, the percentages here are vague, biased, hand-wavy estimates
> > based on personal experience, not real statistics.)
> >
> > So jump in the pool, swim around a bit, and when in doubt, ask
> questions.
> >
> > Take care!
> >
> > Simón
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Paul Proctor
> <proctor710@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Hi Simon,
> >> I am comfortable with Windows but a good bit of my income and my
> hobby is
> >> from building PC's. I would like to use an OS that is more open.
> >> I understand something new would be a chalange, no problem. I just
> need
> >> some
> >> material to experiment with.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Paul
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
>
>
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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Steven,

Erm. I don't rightly remember.

It's certainly probable that I discussed my frustrations on this list
during the fiasco in more detail than I am giving now.

I don't even remember what finally got me to test the RAM—in my hazy
memory it was just desperately testing every hardware component on the
stupid thing.

I know I replaced the motherboard and the processor and the CD-ROM
drive and the power supply before I ever thought to test the
memory...d'oh!

If I said I checked the logs and found something about the RAM...then
I'd say I'm inclined to trust myself. ;-)

Simón

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 03:41:11PM -0400, Simón Ruiz wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>> Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
>> kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.
>
> I thought you said when you checked the logs, you actually saw a single
> line stating something about the RAM.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
> Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

I have two stories for you guys.

One is about a friend of a friend who had a bad chunk of memory on his
Linux machine. Memory was much more expensive at the time, so he
couldn't replace it. Instead, he hacked the kernel to avoid the bad
section of RAM. other than losing a little RAM, it worked fine.

The other is about a friend who had some obscure and hard to duplicate
computer problems. Things seemed to work better in windows, but not much
better. Once while in Linux, he noticed that some characters were
swapped. If I recall the conversation right, 'D' showed up as '@' and
'd' printed as '`'. Bit 2 (mask 0x4) was bad in one specific byte of
memory!

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
>> steered around them"? --SS
>>
>
> I simply mean that with that particular stick of damaged memory I ran
> Ubuntu perfectly fine without rebooting for several weeks, and with
> the same damaged stick Windows XP couldn't even finish installing (or
> boot when I got it installed using other memory).
>
> Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
> kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.
>
> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> I am afraid that this is not a correct assumption. Different OSes has
> different way of allocating/using memory. Probably it's just lucky that
> Ubuntu had not touched the bad memory block. --SS

I most certainly concede "perhaps", as I definitely don't know what
I'm talking about with any certainty.

I find "probably" too strong a word, though.

You see, I'm a memory hog and find myself regularly forcing Ubuntu to
swap if I'm in a system with less than 2GB of memory.

I played memory-intense 3-D games (Nexuiz, anyone?) and routinely ran
the GIMP on many large photos at once, while keeping Firefox open with
my customary zillion tabs.

If Ubuntu didn't touch the bad memory blocks, I find design more
probable than luck.

Though I do concede that I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

While we are at this, you might be interested in taking a look at this --

http://rick.vanrein.org/linux/badram/

I have never tried this though -- fortunately my RAM chips have not given up on me after I discovered this.

 -- Abhishek

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

I am afraid that this is not a correct assumption.  Different OSes has
different way of allocating/using memory.  Probably it's just lucky that
Ubuntu had not touched the bad memory block.  --SS

> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>

>> I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
>> steered around them"?  --SS
>>
>

> I simply mean that with that particular stick of damaged memory I ran
> Ubuntu perfectly fine without rebooting for several weeks, and with
> the same damaged stick Windows XP couldn't even finish installing (or
> boot when I got it installed using other memory).

>
> Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
> kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.
>

> Simón

>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>


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Re: [BLUG] New OS

I am afraid that this is not a correct assumption. Different OSes has
different way of allocating/using memory. Probably it's just lucky that
Ubuntu had not touched the bad memory block. --SS

> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
>> steered around them"? --SS
>>
>
> I simply mean that with that particular stick of damaged memory I ran
> Ubuntu perfectly fine without rebooting for several weeks, and with
> the same damaged stick Windows XP couldn't even finish installing (or
> boot when I got it installed using other memory).
>
> Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
> kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.
>
> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 03:41:11PM -0400, Simón Ruiz wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
> kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.

I thought you said when you checked the logs, you actually saw a single
line stating something about the RAM.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] New OS

I've heard this particular story before. (Otherwise I would leave it
for Simón to explain.)

Simón means basically what he said. He didn't do anything to get Linux
to work. He thought his RAM was fine. It turns out it wasn't. When he
checked the kernel logs, he found one tiny message about the bad RAM
being bypassed. Linux checked for this and took action automatically.

Linux is the operating system where things just work better.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 03:34:39PM -0400, Shei, Shing-Shong wrote:
> I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
> steered around them"? --SS
>
> > Long story short, I finally ran a memory test (since Ubuntu ran
> > perfectly fine, I never thought the memory might be bad...) and found
> > out that one of the memory sticks was damaged which rendered XP
> > unusable, but it turns out the Linux kernel just noticed the potholes
> > and steered around them.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
> steered around them"? --SS

I simply mean that with that particular stick of damaged memory I ran
Ubuntu perfectly fine without rebooting for several weeks, and with
the same damaged stick Windows XP couldn't even finish installing (or
boot when I got it installed using other memory).

Since it relates to how memory is used, I only assumed that it was the
kernels that handled the errors with aplomb or not.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

I am curious -- how did you that " kernel just noticed the potholes and
steered around them"? --SS

> Long story short, I finally ran a memory test (since Ubuntu ran
> perfectly fine, I never thought the memory might be bad...) and found
> out that one of the memory sticks was damaged which rendered XP
> unusable, but it turns out the Linux kernel just noticed the potholes
> and steered around them.
>
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Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> You may be surprised. Processors which were buggy and unreliable in
> Windows may actually function better in Linux. Linux checks for and
> works around a large number of processor bugs.

Not just processors.

I put together a computer out of some used parts about a year and a
half ago and installed Ubuntu on it. It ran sweet.

After a couple of weeks, I decided to go ahead and splurge on a
Windows-only game (Civilization IV; what can I say? I'm a Sid Meier
addict...) so I sat down to install Windows XP on the same machine.
The weirdest thing kept happening, though; it kept dying at random
points during the install.

Long story short, I finally ran a memory test (since Ubuntu ran
perfectly fine, I never thought the memory might be bad...) and found
out that one of the memory sticks was damaged which rendered XP
unusable, but it turns out the Linux kernel just noticed the potholes
and steered around them.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Ohio LinuxFest

On 9/20/08 7:10 PM, "Simón Ruiz" <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
> P.S. If you're unsure about whether you wanna go to OLF, Go! You won't
> regret it. I'm taking my wife along, she had a blast last year even
> though she wasn't particularly interested in many of the talks.

...and the last two years, their Oktoberfest has coincided with the date of
the OLF (not sure if that's the case this year). We got bored last year,
walked the four or so blocks, and enjoyed the Oktoberfest celebration as
well.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College of Indiana
812.330.6156 (w) 812.391.3971 (m)

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Mark Krenz wrote:
> Mark Warner said the following:
>>
>> Most recently, I set up a box for a "charity case" (friend of wife) with
>> PCLinuxOS. Wife went out and bought a new printer (HP, at my insistence)
>> to go with it. Came back with an All in One print/copy/scan gizmo.
>> Printing set up automagically, but the copy/scan function would *not*
>> work for nuthin'.
>
> I used to have problems like that, but since about Ubuntu 7.04 I
> haven't. Do you remember which printer it was? I have a HP Officejet
> 5610 that works great under Linux. Even our big color laserjet 3550n in
> our office works now.
>
> Also, how did you test the scanning?

This was a couple months ago, so I don't recall the details. I spent an
entire evening on it, going through everything I could scare up from HP,
Sane, PCLOS, and Google. Wife (not into 'nix) was harrumping over my
shoulder the whole time. (The install I had in place was sweet --
PCLinuxOS 2008 MiniMe with everything a typical home user would need or
want, and it ran like a scared rabbit on a 1.2GHz/384MB.) I blew it up,
loaded XP, and washed my hands of it. Wife takes the support calls now.

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 08:33:10PM -0400, Paul Proctor wrote:
> I have heard rumors about things like monitor
> fires. Is this true??

Monitor fires are extremely uncommon unless you're pulling out all the
stops on ancient hardware.

Serial ports can have a number of settings, and it used to be the norm
to scan the potential serial ports at start-up. This combined with Mono
cards (I *think*) which didn't check the data before sending it to the
monitor did, in fact, cause monitor fires.

You must also remember, though, that when these video displays were
common there was at least one virus floating around that would also
trigger monitor fires.

Why is this of any matter anymore? Well, if I remembered correctly and
it was the mono cards that were susceptable, then... An interesting note
about Mono video cards is that they use a different memory region to
communicate with the cards than EGA/VGA cards. This means it is possible
to have both a mono card -- connected to a mono monitor, as well as a
more modern EGA/VGA interface. I believe Linux supports (or did support)
such a thing, though I'm not sure how it was configured as I was only
exposed to such configurations prior to my move to Linux.

If you're bored and are reading all of the help messages for the serial
subsystem in the kernel, IIRC, you should still find a warning about
this. (Recompiling your kernel can be fun when you're learning things,
and reading the help messages can give you an idea of why things behave
the way they do.)

> I live in Ellettsville so download speed with
> Comcast is OK. Burning ISO's are not a problem either. What about
> processor speed and memory mimium requirements?

Minimum requirements vary depending on the particular distribution.

Any of the fancy KDE/GNOME based systems will have similar min.
requirements to that of Windows XP. 512MB of RAM and 8G should be fine
for most. More is better. Check for specific recommendations before
you download the ISO.

> Is an AMD processor OK?

You may be surprised. Processors which were buggy and unreliable in
Windows may actually function better in Linux. Linux checks for and
works around a large number of processor bugs.

Almost any x86 processor will be fine, provided that it has speeds
roughly on par with their recommendation. (They may recommend Pentium 4,
but as long as it is about as fast as a Pentium 4 it should be fine.)

> What about HD preperation?

Most installers make this easy. They will ask you if you're keeping
Windows, or if Linux will be the only OS. If you're keeping Windows they
should have the capacity to resize your free space. This is a lot easier
than it used to be.say

I recommend you just try it out with wiping the drives of some of your
spares, though. Ideally, you'd want to just make sure you have the original
restore media. (Make it, if you've not made it yet.)

If you're ready for the possibility of erasing the data, you'll be a lot
less surprised when it happens unexpectedly. Mistakes happen, especially
at this stage of things.

> Can I start with a FAT32 partition or NTFS?

If you're trying out Ubuntu/Kubuntu, then Yes. The 'Wubi' tool makes
this possible.

> How about no partition at all?

There are also a number of 'Live CDs' which let you try it out without
installing anything. Ubuntu/Kubuntu have one on their installer. A
number of other distributions have a "Live CD".

> Any preference of my available machines?

Pick one which isn't so substandard that it would make anything suck.

You could also pick one running Windows Vista (or potentially Windows
ME), just to see the increase in speed.

Cheers,
Steven Black

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simón Ruiz" <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 1:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] New OS
>
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> Well, so an install would be your first step.
>>
>> If your hobby is PC building I'm guessing that, like me, you've got
>> more than one computer laying around, huh? Pick one to play with and
>> install some flavor of Linux on it.
>>
>> Now, I'm a little biased since I'm pretty active in Ubuntu's Indiana
>> Local Community (LoCo), but I think Ubuntu is a great starting place.
>>
>> Are you comfortable downloading and burning CD-ROM .iso images? If so,
>> head on over to <http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download>. If you're
>> in Bloomington, you'll most likely get the fastest possible download
>> from the "ftp.ussg.iu.edu" option.
>>
>> I think, like me, that you'll find that installing Ubuntu is a LOT
>> easier and faster than installing XP. Not to mention, it comes
>> pre-loaded with a lot of the software you'd end up having to install
>> yourself after a Windows install.
>>
>> Plus, you don't need to worry about setting up virus scanners, malware
>> removers, or a firewall except in special circumstances (e.g., we have
>> a virus checker running on our file server and mail server at work not
>> so the servers are protected from virii, but so our users running
>> Windows are).
>>
>> A note on hardware, especially since you build your own:
>> Unfortunately, most hardware manufacturers only worry about making
>> sure their hardware runs on Windows and the open source community is
>> left to their own devices as far as getting it to run on any other OS.
>>
>> This means that some of the latest hardware may take a bit of extra
>> work to get running, or is functionally limited, under Linux. So most
>> of us who build systems with the intent of installing Linux on them
>> need to do the research to know what is and isn't supported yet.
>> (Nothing is more irritating that buying a piece of hardware, plugging
>> it in, and finding out that you aren't getting full functionality out
>> of it right now.)
>>
>> On the other hand, for 95% of the hardware out there you won't need to
>> go find drivers for it, since it'll be supported right out of the box.
>> On Ubuntu, there's a "restricted drivers manager" (under System ->
>> Administration -> Hardware Drivers) that will go out and automatically
>> download and set up the extra drivers that are unable to be included
>> automatically due to intellectual property concerns, covering another
>> 4% of the possibilities.
>>
>> It's in that 1% of cases (or more, if you like buying on the cutting
>> edge) that this can be a real pain.
>>
>> (NOTE, the percentages here are vague, biased, hand-wavy estimates
>> based on personal experience, not real statistics.)
>>
>> So jump in the pool, swim around a bit, and when in doubt, ask questions.
>>
>> Take care!
>>
>> Simón
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Paul Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi Simon,
>>> I am comfortable with Windows but a good bit of my income and my hobby is
>>> from building PC's. I would like to use an OS that is more open.
>>> I understand something new would be a chalange, no problem. I just
>>> need some
>>> material to experiment with.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
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>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.0/1683 - Release Date: 9/21/2008
> 10:10 AM
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Re: [BLUG] Desperate for a new OS (was: Happy Software Freedom Day!)

Welcome Paul!

How much have you read about Linux?

Everything you need to know is freely available online. A good
source of these documents is The Linux Documentation Project at
http://www.tldp.org/ . Most Linux folks are in to both free source and
free documentation. You can find printed versions of the same documents.

When talking about Linux, there's a lot of talk about "Linux
Distributions". Wikipedia has a decent article on this, if you don't
know what it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution

Personally, I've been recommending the Ubuntu (or Kubuntu)
distributions. It also has the advantage of having "Wubi" -- an Ubuntu
installer for Windows that can install Ubuntu / Kubuntu alongside
Windows to try it out. http://wubi-installer.org/

We all started somewhere, and a surprising number of us started with
simply the desire for something other than the Microsoft Monstrosity.
I picked up Linux in 1995, before Windows 95 was on the market, and it
appeared clear from the betas that it would be ugly as sin.

There are a number of different major desktop environments. The two
most popular desktop environments at this point are probably GNOME
(used by default in Ubuntu) and KDE (used by default in Kubuntu). Some
distributions allow both GNONE and KDE applications to be used alongside
each other, while others only have GNOME or KDE available. Just because
GNOME and KDE are popular, that doesn't mean there aren't others. There
are a *lot* of options available, some of them more light-weight than
others.

Distribution wars can, at times, reach an almost religious zeal. I
recommend you try more than one. More specifically, I recommend you
try at least one RPM-based distribution and at least one DEB-based
distribution. (For a good time, and an experience of the full range of
potential, you could try them in this order: Slackware, Fedora, Ubuntu,
Foresight.)

However, when getting your feet wet in Linux, I recommend you stick
with one distribution until you feel comfortable enough to branch out.
I recommend Ubuntu/Kubuntu both for the ease of install and general
use, and also because there are a lot of applications you can play with
without installing anything from source. (There are even a wide variety
of options for "standard" components that are really core to the basic
functionality.)

If you have older hardware (more than 10 years old) I, personally,
recommend Debian. (There are others, some of which may still support 386
4MB machines, but that hardware is getting pretty rare.) Debian requires
64MB RAM and 1G HD min. with no desktop. They recommend a Pentium 4
1GHz with 256MB RAM for a system with no desktop. (No desktop meaning
text-mode only.) The great thing about Debian is that if you pick your
packages carefully, you can actually get away with only 64M. They have
lighter weight alternatives of pretty much all the larger components.

If you have hardware that is too old to run a light-weight Linux, you
could always look in to FreeDOS. http://www.freedos.org/ Almost as free
as Linux (some things may not have source), but a lot more DOS-like.
(When they hit 1.0, they had all the features of MS DOS 7. Most DOS
things should work, unless they used particularly obscure undocumented
features.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 08:10:30AM -0400, Paul Proctor wrote:
> Hi,
> You guys don't know me but I am sorta desperate. I know nothing about
> LINUX. I have been using and building PC's since the days of DOS.
> I need a new OS and lots of advice on LINUX. My first step should
> probably be to attend a meeting I guess. Any help would be much
> apreciated!
>
> Thanx,
> Paul Proctor

Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 07:28:16PM GMT, Mark Warner [markwarner1954@att.net] said the following:
> That's been my experience in *most* cases, but....
>
> Most recently, I set up a box for a "charity case" (friend of wife) with
> PCLinuxOS. Wife went out and bought a new printer (HP, at my insistence)
> to go with it. Came back with an All in One print/copy/scan gizmo.
> Printing set up automagically, but the copy/scan function would *not*
> work for nuthin'.
>

I used to have problems like that, but since about Ubuntu 7.04 I
haven't. Do you remember which printer it was? I have a HP Officejet
5610 that works great under Linux. Even our big color laserjet 3550n in
our office works now.

Also, how did you test the scanning?

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Hi,
Thanks much, in the middle of the dowloads right now.
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Warner" <markwarner1954@att.net>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] New OS

>
>
> Paul Proctor wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Got at least three machines not on the router. A newer Dell an old Dell
>> 8100 and an old Compaq. My guess is you have to be more concerned about
>> hardware than in Windows.
>
> Not really. If you've got three machines to dedicate to this learning
> experience, then load 'em all up with three different distros and get to
> it.
>
>> I have heard rumors about things like monitor
>> fires. Is this true??
>
> Never heard of it. Total nonsense, anyway. How could an operating system
> cause monitor fires? Unless they're talking about refresh rates, but
> you'd have to really try hard and tweak the config files manually to
> cause any damage.
>
>> I live in Ellettsville so download speed with
>> Comcast is OK. Burning ISO's are not a problem either. What about
>> processor speed and memory mimium requirements? Is an AMD processor OK?
>
> AMD is all I use. Minimum requirements for a full GUI desktop
> environment will be around 1GHz with 512MB. You can get by with less if
> you have to.
>
>> What about HD preperation? Can I start with a FAT32 partition or NTFS?
>> How about no partition at all?
>
> Again, assuming you're going to dedicate the whole machine to Linux,
> just start the installer and tell it to take the whole disk. The
> installer with run the partitioner and take it from there.
>
>> Thanks for the links I will get Ubuntu ISO ASAP, check my homeowners
>> insurance and load it on one soon. Any preference of my available
>> machines?
>
> There are a lot of Ubuntu fans here, and it's a fine distro, but don't
> limit yourself to one.
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
> Registered Linux User #415318
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.0/1683 - Release Date: 9/21/2008
10:10 AM

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Paul Proctor wrote:
> Hi,
> Got at least three machines not on the router. A newer Dell an old Dell
> 8100 and an old Compaq. My guess is you have to be more concerned about
> hardware than in Windows.

Not really. If you've got three machines to dedicate to this learning
experience, then load 'em all up with three different distros and get to it.

> I have heard rumors about things like monitor
> fires. Is this true??

Never heard of it. Total nonsense, anyway. How could an operating system
cause monitor fires? Unless they're talking about refresh rates, but
you'd have to really try hard and tweak the config files manually to
cause any damage.

> I live in Ellettsville so download speed with
> Comcast is OK. Burning ISO's are not a problem either. What about
> processor speed and memory mimium requirements? Is an AMD processor OK?

AMD is all I use. Minimum requirements for a full GUI desktop
environment will be around 1GHz with 512MB. You can get by with less if
you have to.

> What about HD preperation? Can I start with a FAT32 partition or NTFS?
> How about no partition at all?

Again, assuming you're going to dedicate the whole machine to Linux,
just start the installer and tell it to take the whole disk. The
installer with run the partitioner and take it from there.

> Thanks for the links I will get Ubuntu ISO ASAP, check my homeowners
> insurance and load it on one soon. Any preference of my available machines?

There are a lot of Ubuntu fans here, and it's a fine distro, but don't
limit yourself to one.

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Hi,
Got at least three machines not on the router. A newer Dell an old Dell 8100
and an old Compaq. My guess is you have to be more concerned about hardware
than in Windows. I have heard rumors about things like monitor fires. Is
this true?? I live in Ellettsville so download speed with Comcast is OK.
Burning ISO's are not a problem either. What about processor speed and
memory mimium requirements? Is an AMD processor OK? What about HD
preperation? Can I start with a FAT32 partition or NTFS? How about no
partition at all?
Thanks for the links I will get Ubuntu ISO ASAP, check my homeowners
insurance and load it on one soon. Any preference of my available machines?
Thanx,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simón Ruiz" <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] New OS

> Paul,
>
> Well, so an install would be your first step.
>
> If your hobby is PC building I'm guessing that, like me, you've got
> more than one computer laying around, huh? Pick one to play with and
> install some flavor of Linux on it.
>
> Now, I'm a little biased since I'm pretty active in Ubuntu's Indiana
> Local Community (LoCo), but I think Ubuntu is a great starting place.
>
> Are you comfortable downloading and burning CD-ROM .iso images? If so,
> head on over to <http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download>. If you're
> in Bloomington, you'll most likely get the fastest possible download
> from the "ftp.ussg.iu.edu" option.
>
> I think, like me, that you'll find that installing Ubuntu is a LOT
> easier and faster than installing XP. Not to mention, it comes
> pre-loaded with a lot of the software you'd end up having to install
> yourself after a Windows install.
>
> Plus, you don't need to worry about setting up virus scanners, malware
> removers, or a firewall except in special circumstances (e.g., we have
> a virus checker running on our file server and mail server at work not
> so the servers are protected from virii, but so our users running
> Windows are).
>
> A note on hardware, especially since you build your own:
> Unfortunately, most hardware manufacturers only worry about making
> sure their hardware runs on Windows and the open source community is
> left to their own devices as far as getting it to run on any other OS.
>
> This means that some of the latest hardware may take a bit of extra
> work to get running, or is functionally limited, under Linux. So most
> of us who build systems with the intent of installing Linux on them
> need to do the research to know what is and isn't supported yet.
> (Nothing is more irritating that buying a piece of hardware, plugging
> it in, and finding out that you aren't getting full functionality out
> of it right now.)
>
> On the other hand, for 95% of the hardware out there you won't need to
> go find drivers for it, since it'll be supported right out of the box.
> On Ubuntu, there's a "restricted drivers manager" (under System ->
> Administration -> Hardware Drivers) that will go out and automatically
> download and set up the extra drivers that are unable to be included
> automatically due to intellectual property concerns, covering another
> 4% of the possibilities.
>
> It's in that 1% of cases (or more, if you like buying on the cutting
> edge) that this can be a real pain.
>
> (NOTE, the percentages here are vague, biased, hand-wavy estimates
> based on personal experience, not real statistics.)
>
> So jump in the pool, swim around a bit, and when in doubt, ask questions.
>
> Take care!
>
> Simón
>
> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Paul Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Hi Simon,
>> I am comfortable with Windows but a good bit of my income and my hobby is
>> from building PC's. I would like to use an OS that is more open.
>> I understand something new would be a chalange, no problem. I just need
>> some
>> material to experiment with.
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

in terms of installs, wubi is an incredible installer.  I don't think that has anything to do with what is being discussed here, but I figgered I'd mention it.
http://wubi-installer.org/
Matt

Re: [BLUG] New OS

Mark,

See if you can install hplip (HP Linux Imaging and Printing -- Print,
Scan and Fax Drivers for Linux) package in Ubuntu. If not, visit

http://hplip.sourceforge.net/

Good luck,
Shing-Shong

>
> That's been my experience in *most* cases, but....
>
> Most recently, I set up a box for a "charity case" (friend of wife)
> with PCLinuxOS. Wife went out and bought a new printer (HP, at my
> insistence) to go with it. Came back with an All in One
> print/copy/scan gizmo. Printing set up automagically, but the
> copy/scan function would *not* work for nuthin'.
>

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Dave Cooley wrote:
> Agreed. I'm biased as well, but Ubuntu would be a great place to
> start. The other day, I had to set up a Laserjet 4200 via Parallel port
> (it's a long, dumb story). I hooked the cable up to a machine running
> Ubuntu, turned the printer on, and nothing happened. I was like "well,
> what the heck do I need to do now?". I wondered if maybe it would see
> it if I rebooted. Just for kicks, I started up Firefox and clicked
> "print". Boom, Ubuntu already knew the printer was there and had
> already set it up for me with the proper driver; no reboot, no driver
> selection, I DID NOTHING. I was pleased.

Yup, that's been my experience *most* of the time. Usually with older
stuff. It's the latest and greatest that can trip you up.

> Besides being fairly simple (if you want it to be), I think Ubuntu's
> greatest strength is its user community. Check out
> http://ubuntuforums.org and you'll meet one of the most helpful, least
> agitated groups of Linux users you'll find for any flavor of Linux.

What I appreciate about the Ubuntu community is its size -- most
everything you might want to learn about has been posted there
somewhere. Even though I'm not a daily Ubuntu user, the knowledge
contained in the Ubuntu forums and documentation can almost always be
applied to other Debian based distros -- like MEPIS -- that I *do* use.

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net> wrote:
> Simón Ruiz wrote:
>> In Ubuntu I plug the printer in and BOOM! it's automagically set up
>> for me. WooHoo!
>
> That's been my experience in *most* cases, but....
>
> Most recently, I set up a box for a "charity case" (friend of wife) with
> PCLinuxOS. Wife went out and bought a new printer (HP, at my insistence) to
> go with it. Came back with an All in One print/copy/scan gizmo. Printing set
> up automagically, but the copy/scan function would *not* work for nuthin'.

Yowch.

Yeah, I haven't tried any MFCs in Linux, myself.

They're a pain even under Windows, so I avoid them.

There's got to be SOMEONE out there who's had SOME success though...

Here's a lead: <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HpAllInOne>

I sure the hplip package can be found on any distro.

> --
> Mark Warner
> SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
> Registered Linux User #415318

Cheers!

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> Mark Warner wrote:
>>
>> And be prepared to get a call when the printer
>> they buy at Staples doesn't work automagically.
>
> Actually, IMHO, printing under Ubuntu is MUCH easier than printing
> under Windows.
>
> In Ubuntu I plug the printer in and BOOM! it's automagically set up
> for me. WooHoo!

That's been my experience in *most* cases, but....

Most recently, I set up a box for a "charity case" (friend of wife) with
PCLinuxOS. Wife went out and bought a new printer (HP, at my insistence)
to go with it. Came back with an All in One print/copy/scan gizmo.
Printing set up automagically, but the copy/scan function would *not*
work for nuthin'.

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Agreed.  I'm biased as well, but Ubuntu would be a great place to start.  The other day, I had to set up a Laserjet 4200 via Parallel port (it's a long, dumb story).  I hooked the cable up to a machine running Ubuntu, turned the printer on, and nothing happened.  I was like "well, what the heck do I need to do now?".  I wondered if maybe it would see it if I rebooted.  Just for kicks, I started up Firefox and clicked "print".  Boom, Ubuntu already knew the printer was there and had already set it up for me with the proper driver; no reboot, no driver selection, I DID NOTHING.  I was pleased.

Besides being fairly simple (if you want it to be), I think Ubuntu's greatest strength is its user community.   Check out  http://ubuntuforums.org  and you'll meet one of the most helpful, least agitated groups of Linux users you'll find for any flavor of Linux.

Dave Cooley dcooley@kiva.net

Simón Ruiz wrote:

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net> wrote:   

The best candidates for desktop Linux are total neophytes that have no Windows knowledge or preconceived notions about how computers (Windows) should operate.     

 I agree.    

And be prepared to get a call when the printer they buy at Staples doesn't work automagically.     

 Actually, IMHO, printing under Ubuntu is MUCH easier than printing under Windows.  In Ubuntu I plug the printer in and BOOM! it's automagically set up for me. WooHoo!  In Windows, I have to pop in the CD and run through the "Yes", "Yes", "Yes" prompts which, if you don't pay attention, install all kinds of extra crud on your computer. Then you have to re-boot.  And woe unto you if you decided to plug the printer in before the step in the installation CD dialog that tells you to...  Simón  _______________________________________________ BLUG mailing list BLUG@linuxfan.com http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug   

Re: [BLUG] New OS

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net> wrote:
> The best candidates for desktop Linux are total neophytes
> that have no Windows knowledge or preconceived notions about how computers
> (Windows) should operate.

I agree.

> And be prepared to get a call when the printer
> they buy at Staples doesn't work automagically.

Actually, IMHO, printing under Ubuntu is MUCH easier than printing
under Windows.

In Ubuntu I plug the printer in and BOOM! it's automagically set up
for me. WooHoo!

In Windows, I have to pop in the CD and run through the "Yes", "Yes",
"Yes" prompts which, if you don't pay attention, install all kinds of
extra crud on your computer. Then you have to re-boot.

And woe unto you if you decided to plug the printer in before the step
in the installation CD dialog that tells you to...

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Paul Proctor wrote:
> Hi Simon,
> I am comfortable with Windows but a good bit of my income and my hobby
> is from building PC's. I would like to use an OS that is more open.
> I understand something new would be a chalange, no problem. I just need
> some material to experiment with.

If you're building for others, then you're going to have to understand
that the end user doesn't give a wit about "freedom" and "openness" and
what have you. They want to click on an icon, open the file or program,
and do what they want to do. The best candidates for desktop Linux are
total neophytes that have no Windows knowledge or preconceived notions
about how computers (Windows) should operate. And be prepared to get a
call when the printer they buy at Staples doesn't work automagically.

That being said, I would start by experimenting with Live CDs. Most
desktop Linux distros nowadays come as a bootable CD that loads to
memory and allows you to play around. My personal preferences are MEPIS,
PCLinuxOS, and Ubuntu. The first two use the KDE desktop environment,
which is somewhat similar to Windows; Ubuntu uses Gnome, which is
reminiscent of the Mac desktop.

I also personally prefer distros based on Debian. MEPIS and Ubuntu meet
that preference. And while PCLinuxOS is Mandriva based, it uses the
apt/Synaptic package manager from Debian, which (imo) is far superior
than any of the other mainstream offerings.

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] New OS

Paul,

Well, so an install would be your first step.

If your hobby is PC building I'm guessing that, like me, you've got
more than one computer laying around, huh? Pick one to play with and
install some flavor of Linux on it.

Now, I'm a little biased since I'm pretty active in Ubuntu's Indiana
Local Community (LoCo), but I think Ubuntu is a great starting place.

Are you comfortable downloading and burning CD-ROM .iso images? If so,
head on over to <http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download>. If you're
in Bloomington, you'll most likely get the fastest possible download
from the "ftp.ussg.iu.edu" option.

I think, like me, that you'll find that installing Ubuntu is a LOT
easier and faster than installing XP. Not to mention, it comes
pre-loaded with a lot of the software you'd end up having to install
yourself after a Windows install.

Plus, you don't need to worry about setting up virus scanners, malware
removers, or a firewall except in special circumstances (e.g., we have
a virus checker running on our file server and mail server at work not
so the servers are protected from virii, but so our users running
Windows are).

A note on hardware, especially since you build your own:
Unfortunately, most hardware manufacturers only worry about making
sure their hardware runs on Windows and the open source community is
left to their own devices as far as getting it to run on any other OS.

This means that some of the latest hardware may take a bit of extra
work to get running, or is functionally limited, under Linux. So most
of us who build systems with the intent of installing Linux on them
need to do the research to know what is and isn't supported yet.
(Nothing is more irritating that buying a piece of hardware, plugging
it in, and finding out that you aren't getting full functionality out
of it right now.)

On the other hand, for 95% of the hardware out there you won't need to
go find drivers for it, since it'll be supported right out of the box.
On Ubuntu, there's a "restricted drivers manager" (under System ->
Administration -> Hardware Drivers) that will go out and automatically
download and set up the extra drivers that are unable to be included
automatically due to intellectual property concerns, covering another
4% of the possibilities.

It's in that 1% of cases (or more, if you like buying on the cutting
edge) that this can be a real pain.

(NOTE, the percentages here are vague, biased, hand-wavy estimates
based on personal experience, not real statistics.)

So jump in the pool, swim around a bit, and when in doubt, ask questions.

Take care!

Simón

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Paul Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Simon,
> I am comfortable with Windows but a good bit of my income and my hobby is
> from building PC's. I would like to use an OS that is more open.
> I understand something new would be a chalange, no problem. I just need some
> material to experiment with.
> Thanks,
> Paul

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[BLUG] New OS

Hi Simon,

I am comfortable with Windows but a good bit of my income and my hobby is from building PC's. I would like to use an OS that is more open.

I understand something new would be a chalange, no problem. I just need some material to experiment with.

Thanks,

Paul 

 

 

 

Re: [BLUG] Happy Software Freedom Day!

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:10 AM, Paul Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> You guys don't know me but I am sorta desperate. I know nothing about LINUX.
> I have been using and building PC's since the days of DOS.
> I need a new OS and lots of advice on LINUX. My first step should probably
> be to attend a meeting I guess. Any help would be much apreciated!

Welcome, Paul,

If you've been working with PC's since the days of DOS, and if you're
anything like me, you'll find Linux to be a breath of fresh air.

I know as I began to learn my way around Linux, it was like all of the
good things that have changed in computing since the days of DOS
without all the crud.

Things that need to be complex are, of course, complex (who can we
kid? computers are complex.), and anything that can be simple is. It's
refreshing.

Not to mention, I still have an affinity for the command-line, so
while there was a slight learning curve going from "dir" to "ls", from
"ren" to "mv", etc. learning my way around the bash shell was like
going from a club to a light saber.

Out of curiosity, what is it that brought you to the decision that you
need a new OS?

> Thanx,
> Paul Proctor

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Happy Software Freedom Day!

Hi,
You guys don't know me but I am sorta desperate. I know nothing about LINUX.
I have been using and building PC's since the days of DOS.
I need a new OS and lots of advice on LINUX. My first step should probably
be to attend a meeting I guess. Any help would be much apreciated!

Thanx,
Paul Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simón Ruiz" <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Happy Software Freedom Day!

> Indeed!
>
> http://www.fsf.org/news/freedom-fry
>
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>>
>> And next Saturday is the 25th anniversary of free software (and my
>> daughter's birthday). Richard Stallman announced his intentions to make
>> a free operating system and the GNU project on September 27th, 1983.
>>
>> http://ostatic.com/173195-blog/gnu-kicks-off-25th-anniversary-celebration
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 01:46:23PM GMT, Simón Ruiz
>> [simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com] said the following:
>>> Today, Saturday September 20th, 2008 is Software Freedom Day.
>>>
>>> May we all have a great one!
>>>
>>> Simón
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BLUG mailing list
>>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Krenz
>> Bloomington Linux Users Group
>> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] Ohio LinuxFest

I would love to go this year, but it isn't the cards...the debt and
credit cards. Course I also have to work that weekend.

OLF has been a blast the last 2 years and I would recommend for anyone
to go if they get the chance.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> Just so you know, I was able to book a room over the phone at the Red
> Roof Inn using the group code provided at the "Hotel" link over at
> ohiolinux.org.
>
> This was yesterday afternoon, and every online resource said the
> closest hotel with availability was not comfortably within walking
> distance (if you're like me, you won't want to be *driving* to your
> room after the Pre Party or After Party (or After After After After
> Party ;-) ).
>
> My boss suggested just calling and seeing, and hey, it worked for me.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Simón
>
> P.S. If you're unsure about whether you wanna go to OLF, Go! You won't
> regret it. I'm taking my wife along, she had a blast last year even
> though she wasn't particularly interested in many of the talks.
>
> I wouldn't miss seeing Jon "maddog" Hall's talk on sustainable
> computing, or Jono Bacon's keynote.
>
> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>> If you want to go this, get a hotel room immediately because the two
>> hotels connected to the convention center are already sold out.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 09:31:54PM GMT, Barry Schatz [sorbetninja@gmail.com] said the following:
>>> Ohio LinuxFest registration is open. As usual, it will be in downtown
>>> Columbus, OH. The event takes place October 10-11. but all the real
>>> stuff is Saturday the 11th. Many people (myself included) get a hotel
>>> room, and drive in Friday night. There is a really good pub right next
>>> to the convention center and that Friday night is a great time to fill a
>>> pub with Linux geeks. Guess where I'll be. :)
>>>
>>> I'll have copies of my GPG fingerprint and government-issued ID on me
>>> for impromptu key signings. If you have a GPG key, bring copies of your
>>> fingerprint and get some signatures!
>>>
>>> LinuxFest site:
>>> http://www.ohiolinux.org/
>>> Registration:
>>> https://www.ohiolinux.org/register.html
>>> Hotel:
>>> http://www.ohiolinux.org/hotel.html
>>> Location:
>>> http://www.ohiolinux.org/directions.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BLUG mailing list
>>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>>
>> --
>> Mark Krenz
>> Bloomington Linux Users Group
>> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] Ohio LinuxFest

Just so you know, I was able to book a room over the phone at the Red
Roof Inn using the group code provided at the "Hotel" link over at
ohiolinux.org.

This was yesterday afternoon, and every online resource said the
closest hotel with availability was not comfortably within walking
distance (if you're like me, you won't want to be *driving* to your
room after the Pre Party or After Party (or After After After After
Party ;-) ).

My boss suggested just calling and seeing, and hey, it worked for me.

YMMV.

Simón

P.S. If you're unsure about whether you wanna go to OLF, Go! You won't
regret it. I'm taking my wife along, she had a blast last year even
though she wasn't particularly interested in many of the talks.

I wouldn't miss seeing Jon "maddog" Hall's talk on sustainable
computing, or Jono Bacon's keynote.

On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>
> If you want to go this, get a hotel room immediately because the two
> hotels connected to the convention center are already sold out.
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 09:31:54PM GMT, Barry Schatz [sorbetninja@gmail.com] said the following:
>> Ohio LinuxFest registration is open. As usual, it will be in downtown
>> Columbus, OH. The event takes place October 10-11. but all the real
>> stuff is Saturday the 11th. Many people (myself included) get a hotel
>> room, and drive in Friday night. There is a really good pub right next
>> to the convention center and that Friday night is a great time to fill a
>> pub with Linux geeks. Guess where I'll be. :)
>>
>> I'll have copies of my GPG fingerprint and government-issued ID on me
>> for impromptu key signings. If you have a GPG key, bring copies of your
>> fingerprint and get some signatures!
>>
>> LinuxFest site:
>> http://www.ohiolinux.org/
>> Registration:
>> https://www.ohiolinux.org/register.html
>> Hotel:
>> http://www.ohiolinux.org/hotel.html
>> Location:
>> http://www.ohiolinux.org/directions.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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