BLUG: 2011

Wednesday, November 23, 2011

Re: [BLUG] Linux

Oh, for the record ignore any media more than 6 months old. Ubuntu has a new release every six months and other distros frequently try to release about that frequently, too. (I think GNOME has an official twice-a-year release.)

Linux isn't like Windows. Linux has new releases a lot faster. You can upgrade from Ubuntu 8.04 LTS to 11.04 but with the amount of data to copy it will be faster to download and burn a new ISO.

http://ftp.ussg.indiana.edu/linux is an Indiana University mirror for a lot of Linux projects. It includes "mepis" and "ubuntu-releases" for ISO images for SimplyMEPIS and Ubuntu/Kubuntu. (It includes others, but since those have been mentioned I thought I would point them out.)

Ubuntu actually has multiple flavors. Regular Ubuntu is GNOME. Kubuntu is KDE. Xubuntu is XFCE. Though that's only the initial interface -- they have a common package repository and one install can later also install the other interfaces. I actually prefer Kubuntu to Ubuntu.

When you're starting out it is good to keep at least one machine stable -- that way you can hit the web for answers. It sounds like that won't be a problem for you. ;)

Cheers and good luck,
Steven Black

On Nov 23, 2011 7:38 PM, "Paul W. Proctor" <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi,
Got several spare machines with about 2ghz processors. All I really want to
do with them is internet access and email. All experimental machines, backup
not an issue. Got a bunch of spare time, on SSDI. I have a couple of 2 yr
old Ubuntu disks somewhere.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Black" <yam655@gmail.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Linux

> My middle school niece switched to Linux. It can be quite easy -- and
> I mean far easier than Windows. I installed it for her once, and let
> her do all the administration with it -- next thing I know she's
> installed it on replacement laptops and on friends' laptops. She had
> no prior experience with Linux and hadn't read anything about it
> before I installed it for her. I was tired of repairing problems with
> viruses. I said I would fix it one last time and she would never have
> a problem with viruses again: I installed Ubuntu.
>
> Hardware compatibility isn't a given. This is known to bite people
> when they initially convert.
>
> Also, make sure you back up anything on the computer that you want to
> keep. You should be keeping backups as a normal part of your computer
> life, but unfortunately this isn't a given.
>
> Any time you use any tool to repartition a hard drive expect the
> possibility that something could go wrong and you could lose all data
> on that drive. If you have multiple drives and are not absolutely sure
> which is which when you repartition you need to expect to lose all
> data on the drive you were not planning to use.
>
> What do you need to do with the computer and how fast do you need it
> to be usable? How much time do you have to play with Linux before you
> need to be productive with it?
>
> For a simple "is my hardware compatible with Linux" test there are
> "Live" CDs. Personally, I'm a fan of Ubuntu. Their desktop
> installation CDs are also "live" CDs. You can boot up Ubuntu and
> verify the hardware is supported before you install upon it. At this
> point, I think most Linux distributions have Live media when they're
> not the same as their desktop installation media. Some distributions
> may require DVDs but most have just one required installation CD and
> the rest of the packages can be downloaded from the Internet. (Debian
> is available on 52 CDs, 8 DVDs, or 2 BD. You can get a bootable system
> that can go online to download more packages with just the first CD.
> Many packages are alternatives to other packages.)
>
> The gentlest installation of Linux has got to be Wubi -- the Ubuntu
> Windows Installer.
> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer -- It is
> actually easier to try out Linux with Wubi than it is to try it out
> with a Live CD. It installs Linux like a Windows application -- no
> repartitioning needed (though you need to reboot to boot in to Linux)
> -- and this means it can be uninstalled just as easily. There are some
> caveats with using Wubi -- disk access isn't as fast -- but
> performance is more realistic than a Live CD and it is super fast and
> easy. Since Wubi installs Linux in to space allocated within your
> Windows partition there's no risk of loss of data stored in your
> Windows partition.
>
> If you know the hardware will work with Linux, there is no reason to
> stick with the first distribution of Linux that you try. There are a
> lot of different flavors. Some distributions are easier to use than
> others, and most have slightly different hardware requirements. Linux
> will run on a wide variety of hardware. Most Linux distributions have
> similar hardware requirements to modern version of Windows. Some Linux
> distributions specifically focus on lighter hardware requirements for
> older hardware.
>
> Personally, I started using Linux when my system had few enough
> resources I only used a GUI if I wanted to see pictures on a webpage.
> Everything else was done through the console. This meant that system
> was still doing all kinds of stuff when it would have been unsuitable
> for anything in Windows. If you're comfortable with something very
> light-weight, I think the modern hardware requirements are a
> Pentium-class processor or better. The GUI (and Live) CDs won't work,
> but Ubuntu has an "alternate" CD that should work. Even when you need
> to install in text-mode you should be able to use one of the
> lighter-weight window managers. ([Off-topic] Though you need not throw
> away even older hardware. FreeDOS released a 1.0 release -- compatible
> with MS DOS 6.0 -- and ships with a lot of software.)
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Mark Warner <mhwarner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do you have a spare machine you can load it on? My suggestion is to just
>> load up a flavor of desktop Linux (my personal preference is
>> SimplyMEPIS) and have at it. Be prepared to have numerous WTF! moments
>> and to totally trash the system out and having to reinstall. Eventually
>> it will all come together, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.
>>
>> JMO. YMMV.
>>
>> Paul W. Proctor wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user
>>> for decades.
>>> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend
>>> one near IU.
>>> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
>>> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul Proctor
>>> proctor710@comcast.net <mailto:proctor710@comcast.net>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Warner
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4634 - Release Date: 11/23/11
>

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

Drivers are typically not an issue. Usually it either works out-of-the-box or it won't work at all. There are a few exceptions, but you should be notified if they are available. (The OS will notify you.)

Cheers,
Steven

On Nov 23, 2011 7:30 PM, "Paul W. Proctor" <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi,
Yup, actually got at least six spar working machines. What are minium specs?
What about drivers?
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Warner" <mhwarner@gmail.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Linux

>
> Do you have a spare machine you can load it on? My suggestion is to just
> load up a flavor of desktop Linux (my personal preference is
> SimplyMEPIS) and have at it. Be prepared to have numerous WTF! moments
> and to totally trash the system out and having to reinstall. Eventually
> it will all come together, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.
>
> JMO. YMMV.
>
> Paul W. Proctor wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user
>> for decades.
>> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend
>> one near IU.
>> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
>> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
>> Thanks,
>> Paul Proctor
>> proctor710@comcast.net <mailto:proctor710@comcast.net>
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4634 - Release Date: 11/23/11
>

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

A 2GHz proc and 1G of RAM should be sufficient for most installs.

My suggestion would be to download, burn, and boot to the Live disks the
latest versions of these four distros, in no particular order:

SimplyMEPIS
PCLinuxOS
Ubuntu
Mint

Running them through their paces in Live mode will give you an idea of
hardware compatibility. If it works Live, it will work installed. (Do
understand that performance will be greatly degraded while in Live mode.)

The first two are native KDE distros, while that latter two are native
Gnome distros. Gnome is in transition now to version 3, and Ubuntu is
moving to what's known as the Unity desktop on top of Gnome, while Mint
is using a desktop (MATE?) that runs on Gnome 3 but is designed to
operate like Gnome 2.

MEPIS is built on Debian stable, is known for it's stability and ease of
use, and NOT for being the "latest and greatest".
PCLinuxOS is a rolling release, with constant and continuous updating.
That said, it rarely suffers from serious breakage.
Ubuntu is based on a snapshot of Debian unstable/experimental, is then
modified/reworked, and released in six month cycles.
Mint is based on Ubuntu, and follows its release cycle. Many consider it
more "user friendly" than Ubuntu.

Once you've taken these for a spin, you'll have an idea of what kind of
hardware compatibility you've got (probably very good -- most
difficulties arise with brand new hardware), and what the various
distros look like and a basic idea of how they operate. I suspect one of
these four will just feel right. If so, just hit the Install Icon on the
Live disk desktop, tell the installer to take the whole disk, and turn
it loose.

Then the fun begins.

---
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318

Paul W. Proctor wrote:
> Hi,
> Got several spare machines with about 2ghz processors. All I really want to
> do with them is internet access and email. All experimental machines, backup
> not an issue. Got a bunch of spare time, on SSDI. I have a couple of 2 yr
> old Ubuntu disks somewhere.

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

Hi,
Got several spare machines with about 2ghz processors. All I really want to
do with them is internet access and email. All experimental machines, backup
not an issue. Got a bunch of spare time, on SSDI. I have a couple of 2 yr
old Ubuntu disks somewhere.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Black" <yam655@gmail.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Linux

> My middle school niece switched to Linux. It can be quite easy -- and
> I mean far easier than Windows. I installed it for her once, and let
> her do all the administration with it -- next thing I know she's
> installed it on replacement laptops and on friends' laptops. She had
> no prior experience with Linux and hadn't read anything about it
> before I installed it for her. I was tired of repairing problems with
> viruses. I said I would fix it one last time and she would never have
> a problem with viruses again: I installed Ubuntu.
>
> Hardware compatibility isn't a given. This is known to bite people
> when they initially convert.
>
> Also, make sure you back up anything on the computer that you want to
> keep. You should be keeping backups as a normal part of your computer
> life, but unfortunately this isn't a given.
>
> Any time you use any tool to repartition a hard drive expect the
> possibility that something could go wrong and you could lose all data
> on that drive. If you have multiple drives and are not absolutely sure
> which is which when you repartition you need to expect to lose all
> data on the drive you were not planning to use.
>
> What do you need to do with the computer and how fast do you need it
> to be usable? How much time do you have to play with Linux before you
> need to be productive with it?
>
> For a simple "is my hardware compatible with Linux" test there are
> "Live" CDs. Personally, I'm a fan of Ubuntu. Their desktop
> installation CDs are also "live" CDs. You can boot up Ubuntu and
> verify the hardware is supported before you install upon it. At this
> point, I think most Linux distributions have Live media when they're
> not the same as their desktop installation media. Some distributions
> may require DVDs but most have just one required installation CD and
> the rest of the packages can be downloaded from the Internet. (Debian
> is available on 52 CDs, 8 DVDs, or 2 BD. You can get a bootable system
> that can go online to download more packages with just the first CD.
> Many packages are alternatives to other packages.)
>
> The gentlest installation of Linux has got to be Wubi -- the Ubuntu
> Windows Installer.
> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer -- It is
> actually easier to try out Linux with Wubi than it is to try it out
> with a Live CD. It installs Linux like a Windows application -- no
> repartitioning needed (though you need to reboot to boot in to Linux)
> -- and this means it can be uninstalled just as easily. There are some
> caveats with using Wubi -- disk access isn't as fast -- but
> performance is more realistic than a Live CD and it is super fast and
> easy. Since Wubi installs Linux in to space allocated within your
> Windows partition there's no risk of loss of data stored in your
> Windows partition.
>
> If you know the hardware will work with Linux, there is no reason to
> stick with the first distribution of Linux that you try. There are a
> lot of different flavors. Some distributions are easier to use than
> others, and most have slightly different hardware requirements. Linux
> will run on a wide variety of hardware. Most Linux distributions have
> similar hardware requirements to modern version of Windows. Some Linux
> distributions specifically focus on lighter hardware requirements for
> older hardware.
>
> Personally, I started using Linux when my system had few enough
> resources I only used a GUI if I wanted to see pictures on a webpage.
> Everything else was done through the console. This meant that system
> was still doing all kinds of stuff when it would have been unsuitable
> for anything in Windows. If you're comfortable with something very
> light-weight, I think the modern hardware requirements are a
> Pentium-class processor or better. The GUI (and Live) CDs won't work,
> but Ubuntu has an "alternate" CD that should work. Even when you need
> to install in text-mode you should be able to use one of the
> lighter-weight window managers. ([Off-topic] Though you need not throw
> away even older hardware. FreeDOS released a 1.0 release -- compatible
> with MS DOS 6.0 -- and ships with a lot of software.)
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Mark Warner <mhwarner@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Do you have a spare machine you can load it on? My suggestion is to just
>> load up a flavor of desktop Linux (my personal preference is
>> SimplyMEPIS) and have at it. Be prepared to have numerous WTF! moments
>> and to totally trash the system out and having to reinstall. Eventually
>> it will all come together, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.
>>
>> JMO. YMMV.
>>
>> Paul W. Proctor wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user
>>> for decades.
>>> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend
>>> one near IU.
>>> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
>>> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul Proctor
>>> proctor710@comcast.net <mailto:proctor710@comcast.net>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Warner
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4634 - Release Date: 11/23/11
>

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

Hi,
Yup, actually got at least six spar working machines. What are minium specs?
What about drivers?
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Warner" <mhwarner@gmail.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Linux

>
> Do you have a spare machine you can load it on? My suggestion is to just
> load up a flavor of desktop Linux (my personal preference is
> SimplyMEPIS) and have at it. Be prepared to have numerous WTF! moments
> and to totally trash the system out and having to reinstall. Eventually
> it will all come together, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.
>
> JMO. YMMV.
>
> Paul W. Proctor wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user
>> for decades.
>> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend
>> one near IU.
>> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
>> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
>> Thanks,
>> Paul Proctor
>> proctor710@comcast.net <mailto:proctor710@comcast.net>
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2101/4634 - Release Date: 11/23/11
>

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

My middle school niece switched to Linux. It can be quite easy -- and
I mean far easier than Windows. I installed it for her once, and let
her do all the administration with it -- next thing I know she's
installed it on replacement laptops and on friends' laptops. She had
no prior experience with Linux and hadn't read anything about it
before I installed it for her. I was tired of repairing problems with
viruses. I said I would fix it one last time and she would never have
a problem with viruses again: I installed Ubuntu.

Hardware compatibility isn't a given. This is known to bite people
when they initially convert.

Also, make sure you back up anything on the computer that you want to
keep. You should be keeping backups as a normal part of your computer
life, but unfortunately this isn't a given.

Any time you use any tool to repartition a hard drive expect the
possibility that something could go wrong and you could lose all data
on that drive. If you have multiple drives and are not absolutely sure
which is which when you repartition you need to expect to lose all
data on the drive you were not planning to use.

What do you need to do with the computer and how fast do you need it
to be usable? How much time do you have to play with Linux before you
need to be productive with it?

For a simple "is my hardware compatible with Linux" test there are
"Live" CDs. Personally, I'm a fan of Ubuntu. Their desktop
installation CDs are also "live" CDs. You can boot up Ubuntu and
verify the hardware is supported before you install upon it. At this
point, I think most Linux distributions have Live media when they're
not the same as their desktop installation media. Some distributions
may require DVDs but most have just one required installation CD and
the rest of the packages can be downloaded from the Internet. (Debian
is available on 52 CDs, 8 DVDs, or 2 BD. You can get a bootable system
that can go online to download more packages with just the first CD.
Many packages are alternatives to other packages.)

The gentlest installation of Linux has got to be Wubi -- the Ubuntu
Windows Installer.
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer -- It is
actually easier to try out Linux with Wubi than it is to try it out
with a Live CD. It installs Linux like a Windows application -- no
repartitioning needed (though you need to reboot to boot in to Linux)
-- and this means it can be uninstalled just as easily. There are some
caveats with using Wubi -- disk access isn't as fast -- but
performance is more realistic than a Live CD and it is super fast and
easy. Since Wubi installs Linux in to space allocated within your
Windows partition there's no risk of loss of data stored in your
Windows partition.

If you know the hardware will work with Linux, there is no reason to
stick with the first distribution of Linux that you try. There are a
lot of different flavors. Some distributions are easier to use than
others, and most have slightly different hardware requirements. Linux
will run on a wide variety of hardware. Most Linux distributions have
similar hardware requirements to modern version of Windows. Some Linux
distributions specifically focus on lighter hardware requirements for
older hardware.

Personally, I started using Linux when my system had few enough
resources I only used a GUI if I wanted to see pictures on a webpage.
Everything else was done through the console. This meant that system
was still doing all kinds of stuff when it would have been unsuitable
for anything in Windows. If you're comfortable with something very
light-weight, I think the modern hardware requirements are a
Pentium-class processor or better. The GUI (and Live) CDs won't work,
but Ubuntu has an "alternate" CD that should work. Even when you need
to install in text-mode you should be able to use one of the
lighter-weight window managers. ([Off-topic] Though you need not throw
away even older hardware. FreeDOS released a 1.0 release -- compatible
with MS DOS 6.0 -- and ships with a lot of software.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Mark Warner <mhwarner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you have a spare machine you can load it on? My suggestion is to just
> load up a flavor of desktop Linux (my personal preference is
> SimplyMEPIS) and have at it. Be prepared to have numerous WTF! moments
> and to totally trash the system out and having to reinstall. Eventually
> it will all come together, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.
>
> JMO. YMMV.
>
> Paul W. Proctor wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user
>> for decades.
>> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend
>> one near IU.
>> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
>> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
>> Thanks,
>> Paul Proctor
>> proctor710@comcast.net <mailto:proctor710@comcast.net>
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

Do you have a spare machine you can load it on? My suggestion is to just
load up a flavor of desktop Linux (my personal preference is
SimplyMEPIS) and have at it. Be prepared to have numerous WTF! moments
and to totally trash the system out and having to reinstall. Eventually
it will all come together, and you'll wonder why you waited so long.

JMO. YMMV.

Paul W. Proctor wrote:
> Hi,
> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user
> for decades.
> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend
> one near IU.
> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
> Thanks,
> Paul Proctor
> proctor710@comcast.net <mailto:proctor710@comcast.net>

--
Mark Warner
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Linux

you might want to check out indianalinux.org. We will be running ILF
2012 april 13th to the 15th this coming year and working on the event
currently.

Cheers

Matthew Williams
President Indiana F/OSS Society
Lead Organizer Indiana LinuxFest

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Paul W. Proctor <proctor710@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user for
> decades.
> I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend one
> near IU.
> I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.
> I AM READY TO CONVERT.
> Thanks,
> Paul Proctor
> proctor710@comcast.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>

--
Mettle not in the Ways of dragons for thou art crunchy and taste good
with ketchup
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

[BLUG] Linux

Hi,

I am ready to take the plunge with Linux! Been a diehard Windows user for decades.

I would like to know when the next Linux Fest is. I would like to attend one near IU.

I would also be open to any advice for a newbie.

I AM READY TO CONVERT.

Thanks,

Paul Proctor

proctor710@comcast.net

Tuesday, November 22, 2011

[BLUG] xfce4-terminal, gnome-terminal and guake security issues

I just posted this to my G+ account. Read this if you use any of these terminals:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/104947878052533251426/posts/Q9JmPiEckD9

---------
Just discovered a major security flaw in xfce4-terminal, gnome-terminal
and guake on Linux, but probably other OSes are affected as well that
uses these programs. Filing bug reports now. If you use any of these
terminals, I'd recommend switching to Konsole, Eterm, xterm, rxvt, aterm
or some other one for now until these bugs are fixed. Also, you should
probably scrub your /tmp filesystem pretty good. At least write over it
with 0s, use shred, etc.

Basically, the problem is that the terminal buffers are stored within
filehandles on the tmp filesystem. If you run strings on your /tmp
filesystem as root you should see quite a bit of your previous terminal
buffer history, including that of old closed terminals. I consider
terminal buffer history to be a sacred thing, so I was quite surprised
to find out about this behavior.

On Linux, if you want to check if your terminal is exhibiting this
behavior, run some commands that produce some terminal output (ls ~/,
find /, etc). Then find the process id for your terminal process (pgrep
gnome-terminal), cd /proc/<pid>/fd. Then run ls -l | grep deleted, you
will see the file handles that are still open for deleted inodes. Some
of these will contain the contents of existing and closed terminal
windows. You can just view them with cat, less, etc.

Bug report status:

xfce4-terminal: https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8183

gnome-terminal: working on it.

guake: some kind of website error right now
---------

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

Sent from Mutt using Linux
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Wednesday, November 16, 2011

[BLUG] [OT] Amiga 1000 System for sale

Hey all...

I've listed an Amiga 1000 on craigslist at

http://bloomington.craigslist.org/sys/2705176012.html

to raise some Christmas money

I know it doesn't run Linux*, but its still a pretty cool system.

Brian

* My A2500 will run Linux but I've never gotten around to trying it.
Maybe I'll tinker with that or AMIX over break.

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Saturday, October 15, 2011

Re: [BLUG] Celebrating the life of Dennis Ritchie

Hm, That's the guy that gave us strcpy(), right?
I would be there but am out of town.

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 4:59 PM, Paul Purdom <pwp@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

Mark Krenz wrote:
> If you'd all like to have a beer tonight and we can honor him,
> share stories and remember. Maybe around 6pm at Max's Place unless
> someone has a better idea. We'll probably be there for a while so if you
> can't make it at 6, then maybe 7 or so.
>

Since I don't drink beer, I will come by at 6 or a little later and eat
some supper with who ever comes.

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Friday, October 14, 2011

Re: [BLUG] Celebrating the life of Dennis Ritchie

Mark Krenz wrote:
> If you'd all like to have a beer tonight and we can honor him,
> share stories and remember. Maybe around 6pm at Max's Place unless
> someone has a better idea. We'll probably be there for a while so if you
> can't make it at 6, then maybe 7 or so.
>
Since I don't drink beer, I will come by at 6 or a little later and eat
some supper with who ever comes.

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Re: [BLUG] Celebrating the life of Dennis Ritchie

I'll be there at six

On Oct 14, 2011 4:39 PM, "Mark Krenz" <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:

If you haven't heard, Dennis Ritchie, the co-creator of the C
programming language and co-creator of Unix, has passed away last
Saturday at the age of 70.

Rob Pike's Eulogy:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/101960720994009339267/posts/33mmANQZDtY

This humble man basically as someone put it, created air for us all to
breathe. If you'd all like to have a beer tonight and we can honor him,
share stories and remember. Maybe around 6pm at Max's Place unless
someone has a better idea. We'll probably be there for a while so if you
can't make it at 6, then maybe 7 or so.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

Sent from Mutt, which was written in C
using Linux which was written in C,
which is a derivative of Unix,
which was written in C.

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[BLUG] Celebrating the life of Dennis Ritchie

If you haven't heard, Dennis Ritchie, the co-creator of the C
programming language and co-creator of Unix, has passed away last
Saturday at the age of 70.

Rob Pike's Eulogy:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/101960720994009339267/posts/33mmANQZDtY

This humble man basically as someone put it, created air for us all to
breathe. If you'd all like to have a beer tonight and we can honor him,
share stories and remember. Maybe around 6pm at Max's Place unless
someone has a better idea. We'll probably be there for a while so if you
can't make it at 6, then maybe 7 or so.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

Sent from Mutt, which was written in C
using Linux which was written in C,
which is a derivative of Unix,
which was written in C.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011

Re: [BLUG] How to utilize these unused spaces?

One tip I'd like to make about LVM. Don't feel the need to use up or
allocate all your physical volume space at once. You should grow it as
needed. This is important because AFAIK none of the commonly available
filesystems out there for Linux let you shrink the filesystem size, so
once you've grown it, you can't go back.

I see some people setup LVM and then allocate all their space to one
large root partition or something like that. Granted, there are other
uses for LVM. But I think they are missing the point, which is
flexibility.

On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 05:20:41PM GMT, Shei, Shing-Shong [shei@cs.indiana.edu] said the following:
> <html>
> <head>
> <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
> http-equiv="Content-Type">
> </head>
> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
> <tt>Thanks, Thomas.  So you don't need to extend the physical volume
> first and the </tt><tt class="computeroutput">lvextend will
> magically know which free space to use (since in this case there
> are 4 possibilities here)?  I was trying to find a way to extend
> the pv on each disk first before trying to use lvextend (so that
> lvextend sees extra space to use). 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Shing-Shong 
> </tt> 
> On 10/5/2011 1:14 PM, Thomas Smith wrote:
> <blockquote
> cite="mid:CAHCWDdawRgPQFs3-V5VUnXv0zKq_Hxh6L_y3q9=8_qaC3i5vLw@mail.gmail.com"
> type="cite">Yes! 
> 
> Here is the page I've used to do this before: 
> 
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
> href="http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/extendlv.html">http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/extendlv.html</a> 
> 
> Hope this helps, 
> -Thomas 
> 
> <div class="gmail_quote">
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
> href="mailto:shei@cs.indiana.edu">shei@cs.indiana.edu</a>>
> wrote: 
> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
> <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <tt>Hi, 
> 
> I have a lvm2 system that's currently not utilizing all
> available disk space as shown in the following pvs output: 
> 
> # pvs 
>   PV         VG      Fmt  Attr PSize   PFree   
>   /dev/sdb1  pool_vg lvm2 a-   931.51g color="#ff0000">118.26g 
>   /dev/sdc1  pool_vg lvm2 a-   931.51g      0 
>   /dev/sdd1  pool_vg lvm2 a-   931.51g color="#ff0000">528.00m 
>   /dev/sde1  pool_vg lvm2 a-   931.51g color="#ff0000">150.26g 
>   /dev/sdf1  pool_vg lvm2 a-   931.51g color="#ff0000">150.26g 
> 
> Is it possible to incorporate the free spaces into the
> existing logical volume? 
> 
> Thanks, 
> Shing-Shong</tt> </div>
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> BLUG mailing list 
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com">BLUG@linuxfan.com</a> 
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
> href="http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug"
> target="_blank">http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug</a> 
> 
> </blockquote>
> </div>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://resc.smugmug.com/">http://resc.smugmug.com/</a> 
> 
> <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
> 
> <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com">BLUG@linuxfan.com</a>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug">http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug</a>
> </pre>
> </blockquote>
> </body>
> </html>

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http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

Sent from Mutt using Linux
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Re: [BLUG] How to utilize these unused spaces?

Hi,

Yes, lvextend will magically figure out that it can use the free parts of the volume group. The "PFree" column from "pvs", or the "Free PE" (physical extents) line in "pvdisplay", shows how much space is left *within* the physical volume, so you don't need to grow the physical volumes at all.

Good luck,
-Thomas

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

Thanks, Thomas. So you don't need to extend the physical volume first and the lvextend will magically know which free space to use (since in this case there are 4 possibilities here)? I was trying to find a way to extend the pv on each disk first before trying to use lvextend (so that lvextend sees extra space to use). Thanks, Shing-Shong

Re: [BLUG] How to utilize these unused spaces?

Thanks, Thomas. So you don't need to extend the physical volume first and the lvextend will magically know which free space to use (since in this case there are 4 possibilities here)? I was trying to find a way to extend the pv on each disk first before trying to use lvextend (so that lvextend sees extra space to use). Thanks, Shing-Shong
On 10/5/2011 1:14 PM, Thomas Smith wrote:

Yes!

Here is the page I've used to do this before:

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/extendlv.html

Hope this helps,
-Thomas

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

Hi, I have a lvm2 system that's currently not utilizing all available disk space as shown in the following pvs output: # pvs PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree /dev/sdb1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 118.26g /dev/sdc1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 0 /dev/sdd1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 528.00m /dev/sde1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 150.26g /dev/sdf1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 150.26g Is it possible to incorporate the free spaces into the existing logical volume? Thanks, Shing-Shong

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Re: [BLUG] How to utilize these unused spaces?

Yes!

Here is the page I've used to do this before:

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/extendlv.html

Hope this helps,
-Thomas

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Shei, Shing-Shong <shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

Hi, I have a lvm2 system that's currently not utilizing all available disk space as shown in the following pvs output: # pvs PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree /dev/sdb1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 118.26g /dev/sdc1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 0 /dev/sdd1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 528.00m /dev/sde1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 150.26g /dev/sdf1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 150.26g Is it possible to incorporate the free spaces into the existing logical volume? Thanks, Shing-Shong

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[BLUG] How to utilize these unused spaces?

Hi, I have a lvm2 system that's currently not utilizing all available disk space as shown in the following pvs output: # pvs PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree /dev/sdb1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 118.26g /dev/sdc1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 0 /dev/sdd1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 528.00m /dev/sde1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 150.26g /dev/sdf1 pool_vg lvm2 a- 931.51g 150.26g Is it possible to incorporate the free spaces into the existing logical volume? Thanks, Shing-Shong

Friday, September 23, 2011

[BLUG] [OT] Stuff for Sale

I'm cleaning out my computer room of things I don't use much anymore.

I'm mostly looking to sell, but there are things I might be willing to
trade for:
* 400+ MHz Alpha workstation since both of my alphas died :(
* DECstation 5000 since mine died as well

Location: Bloomington, IN 47408.

Terms:
* Unless noted, everything worked the last time I turned it on
* Cash only for local pickup
* Paypal for shipped items + actual shipping costs

SUN
---

* Sun Ultra 5 $75
333 MHz UltraSPARC IIi, 256M RAM, CDROM, Floppy, No ATA HD

* Sun 501-2520 $10
75MHz SuperSPARC II MBus Card

* Sun Type 5 Keyboard 320-1073-01 $5
No cable & Missing keycaps: Right arrow, whatever is right of
'compose'
and whatver is below 'open'

* Sony CDU-8012 SCSI CD-ROM (50 pin) $10
Apparent Sun part number 370-1312; Caddy Load

IBM
---
* IBM RS/6000 43p 7248 $35
133MHz PPC 604, 96M RAM, 2.2G SCSI Disk, CD-ROM

Digital
-------
* Digital VT-420 [will not ship] $50
Amber, No Keyboard, MMJ connectors only

* Digital VT-220 [will not ship] $50
Green, With Keyboard

* Digital BCC08 Console Cable $10
Used with a MicroVAX II console

* DECserver 200/MC $25
8 db25 ports, photocopy of the manual in binder

* VAX C 3.0 Manuals $5
Run-Time Library Reference, Guide to VAX C

* RA82 User Guide $2

* StorageWorks SBB w/o Drive $10 each
2x SCA Interface (DS-RZ1CB-VW)
4x 68-pin Interface (3x RZ28M-VW, 1x RZ28D-VW)
4x 50-pin Interface (3x RZ28M-VA, 1x RZ29B-VA)

Apple
-----
* Apple BNC Cable $1
Labeled "<<-/->>" on each end, Part 590-0540-A

* Apple DB9 Cable $1
Part 590-0197-A

* Nuvotech TurboNet Transceiver (2x) $10
Phone Net, with terminating resistor

* Farallon PhoneNET Plus Transceiver $5
No terminating resistor

Networking
----------
* Motorola SURFboard Cable Modem $10

* Xircom CreditCard Ethernet Adapter IIps $5
PS-CE2-10

* 3Com Megahertz 10/100 LAN PC card $5
3CCFE574BT

* Accton ISA 10Base-T Ethernet (2x) $5 ea
Plug-and-play

* 3Com 3C595-TX PCI 10/100 Ethernet $5

* 3Com 3C905-TX PCI 10/100 Ethernet $5

* Realtek 8029AS PCI Ethernet $5
Twisted Pair & BNC connectors

* Cisco Catalyst 1900 24-port 10BaseT Switch $15
Some cosmetic damage

* 10Base-T AUI tranceivers (10x) $5 each
12" cord

PC Stuff
--------
* NEC CDR-512 SCSI CD-ROM (50 pin) (2x) $5 ea
6x according to the web; Caddy Load; Cannot be used to boot Sun
boxes

* Sony CDU-561 SCSI CD-ROM (50 pin) $5
No Face Plate; Caddy Load; May work for Sun boot, depends on PROM
version

* 6' DB25 M-M Cable $5
Black/green dot; probably scsi cable

* Quick Shot Skyhawk Joystick $5
PC Compat, 15 pin.

* Mustek Matador 105 Handheld Scanner w/ISA Interface card $5

* 10' Printer cable $5

* Adaptec AVA-1505Ae ISA SCSI Card $5
db25 external connector (only); solder pads for internal 50-pin

* Adaptec AVA-2902E PCI SCSI Card $5
db25 external connector (only); solder pads for internal 50-pin

* Mitsumi ISA CDROM Interface Card $5

* GVC PCI Modem $5
model 5-1156/R2F

* Turtle Beach TB400 PCI Sound card $5

* Creative Technology Audio PCI CT5803 $5

* Trident TVGA 8800CS ISA Video card $3
Supports VGA and TTL output

* PS/2 3-button Mouse (w/o scroll wheel) (3x) $3

* PS/2 2-button Mouse (w/o scroll wheel) (2x) $3

* PC Serial Mouse (3 button) $3

* Industrial Computer Source PC-73 $15
8-bit ISA card; Software (5.25") & Manual
Looks like 8 channels of 12-bit A/D for thermocouples

Other
-----
* Serial to RJ45 adapter $5
DB25 (3x), DB9 (1x)

* 8" Floppy Disks $25
2x Verbatim Unformatted 1S/1D
5x Tandy Unformatted 1S/1D
15x IBM Previously Formatted "Diskette2" 2D?

* Logical Devices Prompro-XP Serial connection $10
Memory and Logic programmer; No software; Unknown condition; UV oven

* HP HIL->PS/2 Keyboard Adapter Module $10
With 12" HIL cable and PS/2 Keyboard/Mouse ports

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Monday, September 19, 2011

[BLUG] [OT] Anyone have an Alpha collecting dust?

Over the last week or so I've been powering up my old machines in
preparation for rearranging them and to my dismay both of my DEC Alpha
machines have bit the dust :(

Does anyone have either an alpha workstation or smallish server that's
capable of running VMS that they'd be willing to trade for a Sun Ultra
5? The sun needs a hard drive, but its bog-standard ATA.

I'm probably going to part out the Alphas since I'm stumped on how to
get them working again. One is a PWS 500au (21164A @ 500MHz, 192M,
Miata MX5, qlogic scsi controller, powerstorm 3D30, cdrom) and the other
is an AlphaServer 1000A (21064 @ 266MHz, 256M, lots of empty
storageworks cans, onboard scsi & video, DAT, cdrom), so if anyone needs
parts...

I'm also looking to replace my DECstation 5000/120 which also failed,
but since its a power supply issue I might be able to modify an ATX
supply to do the trick.

On the plus side, my VAXes came up ok, so I'm not VMS-less!

Brian

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Wednesday, August 31, 2011

[BLUG] Celebrate 20 Years of Linux at Ohio LinuxFest!

The premier Linux event in the Mid-West USA will run Sept. 9 through
Sept. 11 in Columbus, Ohio, and registration
<http://www.ohiolinux.org/registration> is now open to all.
Keynoters include Cathy Malmrose, Bradley Kuhn, and Jon 'maddog' Hall.
There is an extensive Medical track focusing on the use of Open Source
in various aspects of medicine, training from the Ohio LinuxFest
Institute, and a great slate of presentations. Register now and reserve
your place.

As always, we have a "Enthusiast" category for those short on funds. If
you pre-register at the Web site, you can join us free of charge.
Walk-ins will be charged a small fee.
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Thursday, August 18, 2011

[BLUG] OT: Need AGP/PCI video card -- 128MB+

Doing a charity update/upgrade on an old box, and could use a decent
video card to replace the old 64MB that's in it. Something like an
nVidia FX5200 would be ideal. Would prefer nVidia for Linux compatibility.

--
Mark Warner
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Tuesday, August 2, 2011

[BLUG] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn

I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn.

- Alan

Alan Polis
Information Technology and Services Professional
Bloomington, Indiana Area

Confirm that you know Alan

Monday, August 1, 2011

Re: [BLUG] Looking for some hardware

Some hp, some dell, as well as a dell kvm

On Aug 1, 2011 5:44 PM, "Michael Schultheiss" <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Lord Drachenblut
> <lord.drachenblut@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wanted to see if anyone had some server rails that they might be looking to
>> part with?
>
> What kind of server? I think I have some HP and Dell rails.
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Re: [BLUG] Looking for some hardware

On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Lord Drachenblut
<lord.drachenblut@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wanted to see if anyone had some server rails that they might be looking to
> part with?

What kind of server? I think I have some HP and Dell rails.
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[BLUG] Looking for some hardware

Wanted to see if anyone had some server rails that they might be looking to part with?

Cheers

Thursday, July 21, 2011

Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Steven Black <yam655@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ultimately we're talking risk mitigation. There is no way to remove all
> risks and have a usable system.

Exactly right. My personal paranoia is directed toward the grey hats
surrounding me. So I optimize my habits to thwart them. Joe Mafia
trying to get to me from botnets-r-us worries me much less and is,
imo, much easier to deal with.
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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

With botnets the pam_unix 2 second delay is meaningless. That's two seconds per IP and depending on the size of the botnet it could be longer than 2 seconds before the same IP attacks due to not wanting to DOS your system. Even banning IPs after wrong passwords is useless, as I was never seeing the same IP attempt to attack within 5 minutes or more.

They have near limitless IPs. They have near limitless computing power. They also get bored very, very quickly. The key is to appear uninteresting. Public key auth does that.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Jul 21, 2011 3:23 PM, "Brian Wheeler" <bdwheele@indiana.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-07-21 at 18:23 +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
>
>> Here is a summary to give you an idea of how large of numbers we are
>> talking about:
>>
>> simple 5 character password combinations (a-z)
>> 26^5 = 11881376 (0.01 seconds)
>>
>> full alphanumeric 5 character password (a-zA-Z0-9):
>> 62^5 = 916132832 (0.9 seconds)
>>
>> complex alphanumeric 5 character password (above + all symbols)
>> 94^5 = 7339040224 (7.3 seconds)
>>
>> 3 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
>> 2000^3 = 8000000000 (8 seconds)
>>
>> simple 8 character password combinations (a-z)
>> 26^8 = 208827064576 (208 seconds)
>>
>> 4 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
>> 2000^4 = 16000000000000 (4.4 hours)
>>
>> full alphanumeric 8 character password (a-zA-Z0-9):
>> 62^8 = 218340105584896 (2.5 days)
>>
>> complex alphanumeric 8 character password (above + all symbols)
>> 94^8 = 6095689385410816 (70 days)
>>
>> 5 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
>> 2000^5 = 32000000000000000 (1 year, 5 days)
>>
>> 5 word passphrase drawing from 5000 word vocabulary
>> 5000^5 = 3125000000000000000 (99 years)
>>
>> The time shown in parens is the maximum time that it would take for a
>> system capable of encrypting 1 billion passwords per second would take.
>> Apparently, home desktop systems with high end GPUs have been built that
>> can do this.
>>
>> Lesson learned from all this? Sentence based passphrases are much much
>> stronger. The downside is that they are easier to accidently say in your
>> sleep.
>>
>
> The time needed to generate the encrypted keys is only important if you
> already have the encrypted key and you want to reverse the password.
>
> For scanning SSH hosts that isn't important. What is important is the
> number of combinations for the password character set and the amount of
> time that each wrong answer takes. If the SSH server (and basically
> anything that uses pam_unix.so) waits 2 seconds after each wrong
> attempt, the amount of time needed to guess the correct password becomes
> huge.
>
> For the worst case example above [a-z]{5} it would take 275 days to try
> every combination. The [A-Za-z0-9]{5} one takes 58.1 years. The
> shortest reasonable set/size (all symbols, 6 characters) would take 1801
> years
>
> How many threads would an attacker have to use to make it worth it?
>
> The biggest problem is social engineering, not password complexity. Too
> many people share or write down their passwords. Or they use really
> obviously bad passwords (the account name, 1234, "password", etc). The
> bots hitting the ssh servers, at least from what I've seen, aren't doing
> a brute force attack: they're trying to pick up low hanging fruit where
> passwords of well known accounts were chosen stupidly.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Steven Black <yam655@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you really want to protect a PC you need a boot-time password and to
> power it off whenever it will leave your sight. This is what I do with my
> laptop when at conventions.

Quick, someone hand me a screwdriver! ;-)

> Ultimately we're talking risk mitigation. There is no way to remove all
> risks and have a usable system.

Amen.

> Cheers,
> Steven Black

Cheers,
Simón

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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

Hey! I said "short password" not a bad password. ;)

For me, "short" is 12 to 24 characters, no embedded words, no 1337 substitutions, upper and lower case, includes at least one number and punctuation. Yeah, it can be brute-forced, but it isn't low-hanging fruit. More than that a casual aquantance can't learn I like "yams" and know the key to my password. ("Hey, he turned 34, let's try 'yams77'... Bingo!")

Now "long" is 240 characters or more. I have had one of those before, but they just feel so slow to type I am loathe to go that big.

I usually aim for 70 to 90 characters. Comfortably fast to type, and still long enough to thwart all but the most determined.

Yeah, there's the whole sneak-in-and-copy-key thing. It is suitably low risk for the reasons Mark mentioned.

If you really want to protect a PC you need a boot-time password and to power it off whenever it will leave your sight. This is what I do with my laptop when at conventions.

Ultimately we're talking risk mitigation. There is no way to remove all risks and have a usable system.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Jul 21, 2011 12:53 PM, "Thomas C. Knoeller" <tck@pretend.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Steven Black <yam655@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [...] Using
>> a short passphrase and a key agent that forgets the passphrase
>> immediately with public key authentication is still better than being
>> botnet attacked for months on end.
>
> Heh. This touches on the other part of my paranoia with PKI; the
> short passphrase. Imagine that your passphrase encrypted key gets
> loose in the wild.[1] At that point, you can brute force the file
> without anyone knowing you are doing it. No matter how many thousands
> of bits the key itself is, if the passphrase is simple or small
> enough, there is a possibility of it being decrypted. Whereas, if you
> are doing the password checking during the login process, if a failure
> happens, it is logged and you have a chance of seeing the attack
> before to many guesses of the password can be made.
>
> I agree that the script kiddie login attempts are annoying. But they
> are not likely to succeed if you use password best practices. And if
> you are really worried about them, and cannot lock down the ssh port
> to known remote hosts, using a port knocker of some sort is an easy
> way to only open the port when needed.
>
> As someone else said, 2 factor auth (something you have plus something
> you know) is still the best thing to do, but if you don't do that, and
> need to open ssh to the public, local password is my preference over
> keys.
>
> -Tom
>
>
> [1] Using the stroll to the kitchen example again, if you forget to
> lock your screen, and someone gets to the machine before the 2 minute
> auto kick in of auto screen locker, they can easily open a terminal
> and run a curl command to upload the public key[2] from your machine.
>
> [2] If you are using security by obscurity, while in the daemon rc
> file to change the port number, you should also change the default
> location of the public key file.
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

On Thu, 2011-07-21 at 18:23 +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:

> Here is a summary to give you an idea of how large of numbers we are
> talking about:
>
> simple 5 character password combinations (a-z)
> 26^5 = 11881376 (0.01 seconds)
>
> full alphanumeric 5 character password (a-zA-Z0-9):
> 62^5 = 916132832 (0.9 seconds)
>
> complex alphanumeric 5 character password (above + all symbols)
> 94^5 = 7339040224 (7.3 seconds)
>
> 3 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
> 2000^3 = 8000000000 (8 seconds)
>
> simple 8 character password combinations (a-z)
> 26^8 = 208827064576 (208 seconds)
>
> 4 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
> 2000^4 = 16000000000000 (4.4 hours)
>
> full alphanumeric 8 character password (a-zA-Z0-9):
> 62^8 = 218340105584896 (2.5 days)
>
> complex alphanumeric 8 character password (above + all symbols)
> 94^8 = 6095689385410816 (70 days)
>
> 5 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
> 2000^5 = 32000000000000000 (1 year, 5 days)
>
> 5 word passphrase drawing from 5000 word vocabulary
> 5000^5 = 3125000000000000000 (99 years)
>
> The time shown in parens is the maximum time that it would take for a
> system capable of encrypting 1 billion passwords per second would take.
> Apparently, home desktop systems with high end GPUs have been built that
> can do this.
>
> Lesson learned from all this? Sentence based passphrases are much much
> stronger. The downside is that they are easier to accidently say in your
> sleep.
>

The time needed to generate the encrypted keys is only important if you
already have the encrypted key and you want to reverse the password.

For scanning SSH hosts that isn't important. What is important is the
number of combinations for the password character set and the amount of
time that each wrong answer takes. If the SSH server (and basically
anything that uses pam_unix.so) waits 2 seconds after each wrong
attempt, the amount of time needed to guess the correct password becomes
huge.

For the worst case example above [a-z]{5} it would take 275 days to try
every combination. The [A-Za-z0-9]{5} one takes 58.1 years. The
shortest reasonable set/size (all symbols, 6 characters) would take 1801
years

How many threads would an attacker have to use to make it worth it?

The biggest problem is social engineering, not password complexity. Too
many people share or write down their passwords. Or they use really
obviously bad passwords (the account name, 1234, "password", etc). The
bots hitting the ssh servers, at least from what I've seen, aren't doing
a brute force attack: they're trying to pick up low hanging fruit where
passwords of well known accounts were chosen stupidly.

Brian

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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

Mark Krenz wrote:
>
> Lesson learned from all this? Sentence based passphrases are much much
> stronger. The downside is that they are easier to accidently say in your
> sleep.

And to remember if overheard. :-)

--
Mark Warner
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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 04:52:43PM GMT, Thomas C. Knoeller [tck@pretend.net] said the following:
>
> Heh. This touches on the other part of my paranoia with PKI; the
> short passphrase. Imagine that your passphrase encrypted key gets
> loose in the wild.[1] At that point, you can brute force the file
> without anyone knowing you are doing it. No matter how many thousands
> of bits the key itself is, if the passphrase is simple or small
> enough, there is a possibility of it being decrypted. Whereas, if you
> are doing the password checking during the login process, if a failure
> happens, it is logged and you have a chance of seeing the attack
> before to many guesses of the password can be made.

It depends on what type of passphrase you are using. You might think
that a passphrase could be cracked easier, but it turns out that a
sentence is a lot harder to crack than an 8 character password.

I give an example like this on my SSH tutorial here:

http://support.suso.com/supki/SSH_Tutorial_for_Linux#Generating_a_key

An 8 character password that uses a set of characters made from upper
and lowercase, numbers and symbols has 94^8 or 6,095,689,385,410,816
combinations.

Now if you use a 5 word sentence for a passphrase, you are probably
pulling from a vocabulary of 5000 or so words. "For instance this
measly sentence" could be such a passphrase. The number of combinations
rises to 5000^5 or 3,125,000,000,000,000,000, which is 512 times more
combinations than an 8 character password. And you're probably more
likely to remember the passphrase.

If an attacker had to try to crack the passphrase they could either do
it based on combinations of letters, which on a 33 letter sentence would
be about 28^33 combinations. If the attacker had to try combinations of
words in a dictionary, they are probably going ot have to use a
dictionary larger than your vocabulary, so maybe 50,000 words. This
would be 50000^5 to try. Of course, they don't know how many words, so
they may start with 3 words, then 4, then 5, etc.

Here is a summary to give you an idea of how large of numbers we are
talking about:

simple 5 character password combinations (a-z)
26^5 = 11881376 (0.01 seconds)

full alphanumeric 5 character password (a-zA-Z0-9):
62^5 = 916132832 (0.9 seconds)

complex alphanumeric 5 character password (above + all symbols)
94^5 = 7339040224 (7.3 seconds)

3 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
2000^3 = 8000000000 (8 seconds)

simple 8 character password combinations (a-z)
26^8 = 208827064576 (208 seconds)

4 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
2000^4 = 16000000000000 (4.4 hours)

full alphanumeric 8 character password (a-zA-Z0-9):
62^8 = 218340105584896 (2.5 days)

complex alphanumeric 8 character password (above + all symbols)
94^8 = 6095689385410816 (70 days)

5 word passphrase drawing from 2000 word vocabulary
2000^5 = 32000000000000000 (1 year, 5 days)

5 word passphrase drawing from 5000 word vocabulary
5000^5 = 3125000000000000000 (99 years)

The time shown in parens is the maximum time that it would take for a
system capable of encrypting 1 billion passwords per second would take.
Apparently, home desktop systems with high end GPUs have been built that
can do this.

Lesson learned from all this? Sentence based passphrases are much much
stronger. The downside is that they are easier to accidently say in your
sleep.

> I agree that the script kiddie login attempts are annoying. But they
> are not likely to succeed if you use password best practices. And if
> you are really worried about them, and cannot lock down the ssh port
> to known remote hosts, using a port knocker of some sort is an easy
> way to only open the port when needed.
>
> As someone else said, 2 factor auth (something you have plus something
> you know) is still the best thing to do, but if you don't do that, and
> need to open ssh to the public, local password is my preference over
> keys.
>
> -Tom
>
>
> [1] Using the stroll to the kitchen example again, if you forget to
> lock your screen, and someone gets to the machine before the 2 minute
> auto kick in of auto screen locker, they can easily open a terminal
> and run a curl command to upload the public key[2] from your machine.
>
> [2] If you are using security by obscurity, while in the daemon rc
> file to change the port number, you should also change the default
> location of the public key file.
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

Sent from Mutt using Linux
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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Steven Black <yam655@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...] Using
> a short passphrase and a key agent that forgets the passphrase
> immediately with public key authentication is still better than being
> botnet attacked for months on end.

Heh. This touches on the other part of my paranoia with PKI; the
short passphrase. Imagine that your passphrase encrypted key gets
loose in the wild.[1] At that point, you can brute force the file
without anyone knowing you are doing it. No matter how many thousands
of bits the key itself is, if the passphrase is simple or small
enough, there is a possibility of it being decrypted. Whereas, if you
are doing the password checking during the login process, if a failure
happens, it is logged and you have a chance of seeing the attack
before to many guesses of the password can be made.

I agree that the script kiddie login attempts are annoying. But they
are not likely to succeed if you use password best practices. And if
you are really worried about them, and cannot lock down the ssh port
to known remote hosts, using a port knocker of some sort is an easy
way to only open the port when needed.

As someone else said, 2 factor auth (something you have plus something
you know) is still the best thing to do, but if you don't do that, and
need to open ssh to the public, local password is my preference over
keys.

-Tom

[1] Using the stroll to the kitchen example again, if you forget to
lock your screen, and someone gets to the machine before the 2 minute
auto kick in of auto screen locker, they can easily open a terminal
and run a curl command to upload the public key[2] from your machine.

[2] If you are using security by obscurity, while in the daemon rc
file to change the port number, you should also change the default
location of the public key file.
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BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

Yes, I gave a talk on this 4 years ago. I did have an article for it on
the BLUG wiki and a graph showing the growth of the worm over a few
months, but I haven't had time to recover the wiki since it broke after
a PHP upgrade. Sorry about that.

Anyways, hashlimit has worked quite well. The problem that I was
running into was that the worm that was running around trying every
first name as a username was hitting my servers so hard that it opened
up enough connections to prevent normal users from logging in. So I
turned on hashlimit in the firewall and that stopped the problem. I
also decided at that point that I would move my servers that don't need
ssh access by customers to a custom port. I found one suitable by
searching a years worth of firewall logs and found one that hadn't ever
been hit by port scanners. There are actually several ports like this
so don't ask me which one I use. This is an exercise left to the reader.
;-)

So you can see, there are other issues besides just "if they get the
right username and password", they can practically DOS your system.
Back in 2005 I think I was getting somewhere around 60,000 login
attempts per day.

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 08:51:55PM GMT, Williams, Jeffery Allen [jefjewil@indiana.edu] said the following:
> A while back (3 or more years) there was a discussion about ssh brute force attacks. (I think Mark sent something related to SUSO getting hammered.) Since then, I have limited the number of connection attempts per source IP to 4 / minute using hashlimit in iptables. I have other lines that limit service connections to a few per second from any source (ntp for instance). I also have a few things where I reject the first few connection attempts and after that all attempts are dropped until things quiet down.
>
> I also have notes in my firewall script about portsentry. But I don't know if that's still a thing.
>
> Finally, my router is a piece of crap. If too many connection attempts happen at once it just locks up until it's power cycled. This further prevents brute force attacks (but is more than a little annoying).
>
> Jeffery Williams
> Software Engineer
> ISAT Hall
> 867-5309
> _______________________________________________
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> BLUG@linuxfan.com
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>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

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Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 02:32:04AM GMT, Thomas C. Knoeller [tck@pretend.net] said the following:
>
> Disagree here. I am more worried about coworkers then script kiddies.
> My coworkers know that I have ssh-agent running all the time, and
> they know the vanity domain of my home server. It would take a
> coworker less time to hack me then it takes for me to walk to the
> kitchen and back. Since I am not religious about locking the screen
> each time I walk away from the laptop, and because of the nature of
> the kids I (used to) work with, I would never use public key on a
> public facing interface.

Not knowing what you do and putting the kids issue aside. Let me
easy your worries a bit here with some logic. Yes, your coworkers
probably could gain access to your systems faster, but in most places
this would be crossing the line and grounds for immediate termination.
At least if I was in your shoes and someone did this, I would make sure
that they got fired, damn anyone who tries to say "You shouldn't have
left your screen unlocked".

This is not to say that you shouldn't lock your screen as you should
do that even at home, but what I'm trying to show here is that your
likelyhood of threats is more based on fear than ease of access.

A malicious hacker in Romania basically has nothing to fear because
they know that we won't be able to do anything about it (historically)
if they hack your system. But people that you know have a lot to fear,
losing their job, being arrested, etc. You have to remember that people
are still people with basic motivations to have their life be ok.

Also, if there was someone on my team that I couldn't trust, it would
be better to know about it sooner and have them just hack into my home
server before they do something worse or before you trust them with more
information and access.

I think the biggest time that you have to worry about coworkers is
when they are fired, but hopefully they are out of the building before
they can do anything and likely would try to remote in somehow and
probably wouldn't care about your home computer.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

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Wednesday, July 20, 2011

Re: [BLUG] How many of you run home servers?

Thomas,

If you're not religious about locking your screen, you're asking to be
compromised in any event. There is nothing more potent than console
access when it comes to providing an easy route to break in to a
system.

For instance: If you're not religious about locking your screen, are
you religous about logging out of all root shells you may use before
you walk away? I find I need to slip away while mid-process once and a
while. If I wasn't religous about locking my screen someone could walk
up to my system, create a nefarious account, and clear the screen
before they walk away and I would be unlikely to notice.

If you're not religous about locking your screen, you need an
automatic screen saver that locks your screen, and you need that
screen saver configured to go off after no more than about 2 minutes
of inactivity. I have used such configurations in the past. These days
I do that *and* I'm religous about locking my screen.

If you normally use GNU Screen while you're su'ing on a remote
machine, you should at least configure the internal GNU Screen
screensaver with locking. It is simple to configure and it can prevent
someone from walking up and gaining access to a remote root shell.
Configured to "rain" or something it can be a handy visual reminder
"finish the task here and log out!"

Also a note, any reasonable key agent can be configured to forget the
passphrase after a particular period of time (even immediately). Using
a short passphrase and a key agent that forgets the passphrase
immediately with public key authentication is still better than being
botnet attacked for months on end. (With public key authentication
your site gets dropped from the attack list of the botnets -- they'll
know they can never succeed. Otherwise they keep consuming your
precious upstream bandwidth with requests.

Personally, if I have a server, I want to preserve my upstream
bandwidth. These days it tends to be crazily lopsided from the
downstream bandwidth. It also removes any possibility of an attack
showing up in logs which frees a lot of mental resources for me.
(While on personal machines typically only 3 folks will have SSH
access, I've administered systems where they guessed account names of
users that can log in -- rarely but it has happened to me. In no case
did they actually catch a password/passphrase, but knowing the
username is enough of a scare.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Thomas C. Knoeller <tck@pretend.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Steven Black <yam655@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Make sure you use Public Key authentication and disable system
>> password authentication. A lot of the SSH attacks are done by botnets.
>> [...]
>
> Disagree here. I am more worried about coworkers then script kiddies.
> My coworkers know that I have ssh-agent running all the time, and
> they know the vanity domain of my home server. It would take a
> coworker less time to hack me then it takes for me to walk to the
> kitchen and back. Since I am not religious about locking the screen
> each time I walk away from the laptop, and because of the nature of
> the kids I (used to) work with, I would never use public key on a
> public facing interface.
>
> But I should mention that I also got really sick of the script kiddie
> login attempts, so I did my own homegrown solution. Since I have a
> publicly accessible web server running on the gateway host, I created
> a small ssl'd cgi script that, when invoked, adds the connecting ip
> address to the /etc/hosts.allow file for the sshd service. Since it
> is ssl'd, the web server password auth is not seen cleartext on the
> wire. And since it is just opening up the ssh port, I don't worry
> about having a strong auth password. It's worked pretty well for me
> for several years now.
>
> That said, I do enable PKI access when inside my firewall, so I have
> mostly a false sense of security. With easily installable keyloggers
> and with wifi access to the gooey center of my home network, there are
> still easily accessible vectors for someone determined to get in...
>
> -Tom
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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