Friday, July 31, 2009

Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

Yeah, I guess they go through Russia and then probably through Europe.
5 years ago when I was in Uzbekistan (my wife is from Tashkent), I did
some traces and they mostly went through China. I heard that most of the
ISPs in Uzbekistan go through one central ISP and then through China
from there. I've also heard of some of the other countries going through
China. But again, that might be out of date information.

Perhaps they have changed since then due to China's great firewall
practices.

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 05:52:40PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
> Ah, wasn't sure if tracert would tell the right stuff about the traffic.
>
> So, a lot of sites I tried tracerting left out too much interesting
> stuff, but I finally got one with most of the interesting stuff:
>
> jonathan@terek:~$ sudo tracert amazon.com [23:40]
> traceroute to amazon.com (72.21.207.65), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
> 1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.174 ms 3.106 ms *
> 2 * * *
> 3 * * *
> 4 * * *
> 5 * * *
> 6 * asta-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.151.165) 47.863 ms 48.215 ms
> 7 asta-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.41) 48.333 ms 50.141 ms 50.946 ms
> 8 akto-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.6) 51.283 ms 51.683 ms 52.041 ms
> 9 akto-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.145.30) 54.361 ms 54.695 ms 55.065 ms
> 10 akto-gate-1.online.kz (92.47.151.174) 52.721 ms 53.061 ms 53.482 ms
> 11 MSK-D2-HQ-xe2-3-0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.241.233) 73.830 ms
> 74.174 ms 73.780 ms
> 12 MSK-B1-HQ-1-0-0.0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.226.85) 74.154 ms
> 70.385 ms 73.296 ms
> 13 ae0-304.RT.V10.MSK.RU.retn.net (87.245.253.169) 73.866 ms 71.456
> ms 71.612 ms
> 14 xe000-8.RT.EQX.ASH.US.retn.net (87.245.233.118) 220.277 ms
> 220.575 ms 222.427 ms
> 15 * * *
> 16 * * *
> 17 * * *
> 18 * * *
> 19 * * *
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> 22 * * *
> 23 * * *
> 24 * * *
> 25 * * *
> 26 * * *
> 27 * * *
> 28 * * *
> 29 * * *
> 30 * * *
>
> That's through Kazakhstan: probably first Almaty, then apparently
> Astana and Aqtöbe. Then a few hops in Russia and then across the
> Atlantic. With some other sites there've been some hops in Europe.
>
> Also, traffic directed to China also goes through Russia, and
> apparently Europe and even America (?!):
>
> jonathan@terek:~$ sudo tracert english.cpc.people.com.cn [23:45]
> traceroute to english.cpc.people.com.cn (202.108.251.45), 30 hops max,
> 60 byte packets
> 1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.137 ms 1.596 ms *
> 2 * * *
> 3 * * *
> 4 * * *
> 5 * * *
> 6 * asta-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.151.165) 45.263 ms 45.946 ms
> 7 asta-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.41) 46.341 ms 46.780 ms 47.423 ms
> 8 akto-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.6) 48.723 ms 49.194 ms 49.819 ms
> 9 akto-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.145.30) 48.119 ms 50.126 ms 51.798 ms
> 10 akto-gate-1.online.kz (92.47.151.174) 50.290 ms 50.665 ms 51.027 ms
> 11 MSK-D2-HQ-xe2-3-0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.241.233) 75.181 ms
> 75.483 ms 71.208 ms
> 12 msk-b2-hq-ae0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.228.2) 71.951 ms 73.626
> ms 77.475 ms
> 13 m9-cr01-ge3-3.msk.stream-internet.net (195.34.38.37) 78.326 ms
> 78.358 ms 71.919 ms
> 14 anc-cr01-po3.ff.stream-internet.net (195.34.53.102) 354.614 ms
> 349.316 ms 349.412 ms
> 15 sl-gw10-fra-11-0-0.sprintlink.net (217.151.254.133) 113.039 ms
> 113.329 ms 114.096 ms
> 16 sl-bb21-fra-8-0-0.sprintlink.net (217.147.96.41) 114.607 ms
> 114.616 ms 114.908 ms
> 17 sl-bb20-par-14-0-0.sprintlink.net (213.206.129.65) 125.111 ms
> 126.494 ms 126.325 ms
> 18 sl-crs1-dc-0-8-2-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.19.146) 205.747 ms * *
> 19 * * *
> 20 * * *
> 21 * * *
> 22 * * *
> 23 * * *
> 24 * * *
> 25 * * *
> 26 * * *
> 27 * * *
> 28 * * *
> 29 * * *
> 30 * * *
>
> Totally the wrong direction, but if that's where the connections are,
> okay I guess... Though you'd think sharing a border with a country
> (even if nearly impassible) would mean something.
>
> --
> Jonathan
>
> 2009/7/31 Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net>:
> >
> >
> > Jonathan North Washington wrote:
> >>
> >> 2009/7/31 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
> >>>
> >>> Do you know if their connection goes through China?
> >>
> >> Interesting question. is there a nice linuxy way to find out?
> >
> > tracert should tell you
> >
> > mark@mepis8:~$ su
> > Password:
> > root@mepis8:/home/mark# tracert www.google.com
> > traceroute to www.google.com (74.125.53.99), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
> >  1  192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1)  0.808 ms  0.953 ms *
> >  2  * * *
> >  3  * * *
> >  4  * * *
> >  5  * * *
> >  6  * be-10-ar01.area4.il.chicago.comcast.net (68.87.229.109)  34.049 ms
> >  37.459 ms
> >  7  pos-1-14-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.90.45) 38.096 ms
> >  39.694 ms  40.175 ms
> >  8  xe-10-3-0.edge1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.71.248.9)  38.605 ms  38.847 ms
> >  39.084 ms
> >  9  vlan51.ebr1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.69.138.158)  39.382 ms  39.871 ms
> >  40.526 ms
> > 10  ae-3.ebr2.Denver1.Level3.net (4.69.132.61)  71.492 ms  71.878 ms 72.110
> > ms
> > 11  ae-2.ebr2.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.69.132.53)  92.614 ms  92.981 ms
> > 101.897 ms
> > 12  ae-21-52.car1.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.68.105.34)  98.746 ms  89.011 ms
> >  89.181 ms
> > 13  GOOGLE-INC.car1.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.79.104.74)  136.810 ms 137.203 ms
> >  137.434 ms
> > 14  209.85.249.32 (209.85.249.32)  142.580 ms  142.960 ms *
> > 15  * * *
> > 16  * * *
> > 17  * * *
> > 18  * * *
> > 19  * * *
> > 20  * * *
> > 21  * * *
> > 22  * * *
> > 23  * * *
> > 24  * * *
> > 25  * * *
> > 26  * * *
> > 27  * * *
> > 28  * * *
> > 29  * * *
> > 30  * * *
> > root@mepis8:/home/mark#
> >
> >
> > --
> > Mark Warner
> > MEPIS Linux
> > Registered Linux User #415318
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

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Re: traceroute (was: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?)

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Jonathan North
Washington<jonwashi@indiana.edu> wrote:
> Ah, wasn't sure if tracert would tell the right stuff about the traffic.
>
> So, a lot of sites I tried tracerting left out too much interesting
> stuff, but I finally got one with most of the interesting stuff:

The default traceroute on Linux uses UDP, which is dropped by lots of
places so you end up with nothing for lots of the hops. Windows
tracert uses ICMP, which seems to make it through a bit more.

On Linux, I'm a big fan of traceroute-nanog (with "-I icmp"):

$ sudo traceroute-nanog -I icmp www.google.com
traceroute to www.l.google.com (209.85.225.99), 64 hops max, 28 byte packets
1 c1811.lab.evilrouters.net (192.168.1.1) 1 ms 1 ms 0 ms
2 border2-col-GE-0-0-802.tls.net (65.124.104.49) 14 ms 13 ms 19 ms
3 border2-indy-GE-0-1-804.tls.net (65.123.104.53) 19 ms 18 ms 18 ms
4 209.120.155.17 (209.120.155.17) 74 ms 20 ms 20 ms
5 76.74.82.30 (76.74.82.30) 22 ms 19 ms 19 ms
6 76.74.82.1 (76.74.82.1) 27 ms 24 ms 23 ms
7 ge-6-7.car2.Chicago1.Level3.net (4.71.183.129) 23 ms 26 ms 24 ms
8 GOOGLE-INC.car2.Chicago1.Level3.net (4.79.66.30) 26 ms 25 ms 24 ms
9 209.85.254.122 (209.85.254.122) 71 ms (TOS=128!) 26 ms 25 ms
10 209.85.241.22 (209.85.241.22) 160 ms 35 ms 72.14.232.141
(72.14.232.141) 35 ms
11 209.85.241.37 (209.85.241.37) 36 ms 89 ms 166 ms
12 209.85.248.106 (209.85.248.106) 120 ms 64 ms 66.249.95.138
(66.249.95.138) 46 ms
13 iy-in-f99.google.com (209.85.225.99) 36 ms 36 ms 36 ms

Try it with and without "-I icmp" and you can see the difference.
traceroute-nanog also has some handy options such as -A and -O.

tcptraceroute and lft can also come in handy at times.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
http://evilrouters.net/
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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

Ah, wasn't sure if tracert would tell the right stuff about the traffic.

So, a lot of sites I tried tracerting left out too much interesting
stuff, but I finally got one with most of the interesting stuff:

jonathan@terek:~$ sudo tracert amazon.com [23:40]
traceroute to amazon.com (72.21.207.65), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.174 ms 3.106 ms *
2 * * *
3 * * *
4 * * *
5 * * *
6 * asta-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.151.165) 47.863 ms 48.215 ms
7 asta-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.41) 48.333 ms 50.141 ms 50.946 ms
8 akto-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.6) 51.283 ms 51.683 ms 52.041 ms
9 akto-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.145.30) 54.361 ms 54.695 ms 55.065 ms
10 akto-gate-1.online.kz (92.47.151.174) 52.721 ms 53.061 ms 53.482 ms
11 MSK-D2-HQ-xe2-3-0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.241.233) 73.830 ms
74.174 ms 73.780 ms
12 MSK-B1-HQ-1-0-0.0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.226.85) 74.154 ms
70.385 ms 73.296 ms
13 ae0-304.RT.V10.MSK.RU.retn.net (87.245.253.169) 73.866 ms 71.456
ms 71.612 ms
14 xe000-8.RT.EQX.ASH.US.retn.net (87.245.233.118) 220.277 ms
220.575 ms 222.427 ms
15 * * *
16 * * *
17 * * *
18 * * *
19 * * *
20 * * *
21 * * *
22 * * *
23 * * *
24 * * *
25 * * *
26 * * *
27 * * *
28 * * *
29 * * *
30 * * *

That's through Kazakhstan: probably first Almaty, then apparently
Astana and Aqtöbe. Then a few hops in Russia and then across the
Atlantic. With some other sites there've been some hops in Europe.

Also, traffic directed to China also goes through Russia, and
apparently Europe and even America (?!):

jonathan@terek:~$ sudo tracert english.cpc.people.com.cn [23:45]
traceroute to english.cpc.people.com.cn (202.108.251.45), 30 hops max,
60 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 1.137 ms 1.596 ms *
2 * * *
3 * * *
4 * * *
5 * * *
6 * asta-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.151.165) 45.263 ms 45.946 ms
7 asta-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.41) 46.341 ms 46.780 ms 47.423 ms
8 akto-core-l1-1.online.kz (92.47.145.6) 48.723 ms 49.194 ms 49.819 ms
9 akto-core-l2-1-2.online.kz (92.47.145.30) 48.119 ms 50.126 ms 51.798 ms
10 akto-gate-1.online.kz (92.47.151.174) 50.290 ms 50.665 ms 51.027 ms
11 MSK-D2-HQ-xe2-3-0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.241.233) 75.181 ms
75.483 ms 71.208 ms
12 msk-b2-hq-ae0.main.synterra.ru (83.229.228.2) 71.951 ms 73.626
ms 77.475 ms
13 m9-cr01-ge3-3.msk.stream-internet.net (195.34.38.37) 78.326 ms
78.358 ms 71.919 ms
14 anc-cr01-po3.ff.stream-internet.net (195.34.53.102) 354.614 ms
349.316 ms 349.412 ms
15 sl-gw10-fra-11-0-0.sprintlink.net (217.151.254.133) 113.039 ms
113.329 ms 114.096 ms
16 sl-bb21-fra-8-0-0.sprintlink.net (217.147.96.41) 114.607 ms
114.616 ms 114.908 ms
17 sl-bb20-par-14-0-0.sprintlink.net (213.206.129.65) 125.111 ms
126.494 ms 126.325 ms
18 sl-crs1-dc-0-8-2-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.19.146) 205.747 ms * *
19 * * *
20 * * *
21 * * *
22 * * *
23 * * *
24 * * *
25 * * *
26 * * *
27 * * *
28 * * *
29 * * *
30 * * *

Totally the wrong direction, but if that's where the connections are,
okay I guess... Though you'd think sharing a border with a country
(even if nearly impassible) would mean something.

--
Jonathan

2009/7/31 Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net>:
>
>
> Jonathan North Washington wrote:
>>
>> 2009/7/31 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
>>>
>>> Do you know if their connection goes through China?
>>
>> Interesting question. is there a nice linuxy way to find out?
>
> tracert should tell you
>
> mark@mepis8:~$ su
> Password:
> root@mepis8:/home/mark# tracert www.google.com
> traceroute to www.google.com (74.125.53.99), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
>  1  192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1)  0.808 ms  0.953 ms *
>  2  * * *
>  3  * * *
>  4  * * *
>  5  * * *
>  6  * be-10-ar01.area4.il.chicago.comcast.net (68.87.229.109)  34.049 ms
>  37.459 ms
>  7  pos-1-14-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.90.45) 38.096 ms
>  39.694 ms  40.175 ms
>  8  xe-10-3-0.edge1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.71.248.9)  38.605 ms  38.847 ms
>  39.084 ms
>  9  vlan51.ebr1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.69.138.158)  39.382 ms  39.871 ms
>  40.526 ms
> 10  ae-3.ebr2.Denver1.Level3.net (4.69.132.61)  71.492 ms  71.878 ms 72.110
> ms
> 11  ae-2.ebr2.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.69.132.53)  92.614 ms  92.981 ms
> 101.897 ms
> 12  ae-21-52.car1.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.68.105.34)  98.746 ms  89.011 ms
>  89.181 ms
> 13  GOOGLE-INC.car1.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.79.104.74)  136.810 ms 137.203 ms
>  137.434 ms
> 14  209.85.249.32 (209.85.249.32)  142.580 ms  142.960 ms *
> 15  * * *
> 16  * * *
> 17  * * *
> 18  * * *
> 19  * * *
> 20  * * *
> 21  * * *
> 22  * * *
> 23  * * *
> 24  * * *
> 25  * * *
> 26  * * *
> 27  * * *
> 28  * * *
> 29  * * *
> 30  * * *
> root@mepis8:/home/mark#
>
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> MEPIS Linux
> Registered Linux User #415318
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

Jonathan North Washington wrote:
> 2009/7/31 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
>>
>> Do you know if their connection goes through China?
>
> Interesting question. is there a nice linuxy way to find out?

tracert should tell you

mark@mepis8:~$ su
Password:
root@mepis8:/home/mark# tracert www.google.com
traceroute to www.google.com (74.125.53.99), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 0.808 ms 0.953 ms *
2 * * *
3 * * *
4 * * *
5 * * *
6 * be-10-ar01.area4.il.chicago.comcast.net (68.87.229.109) 34.049
ms 37.459 ms
7 pos-1-14-0-0-cr01.chicago.il.ibone.comcast.net (68.86.90.45)
38.096 ms 39.694 ms 40.175 ms
8 xe-10-3-0.edge1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.71.248.9) 38.605 ms 38.847
ms 39.084 ms
9 vlan51.ebr1.Chicago2.Level3.net (4.69.138.158) 39.382 ms 39.871
ms 40.526 ms
10 ae-3.ebr2.Denver1.Level3.net (4.69.132.61) 71.492 ms 71.878 ms
72.110 ms
11 ae-2.ebr2.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.69.132.53) 92.614 ms 92.981 ms
101.897 ms
12 ae-21-52.car1.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.68.105.34) 98.746 ms 89.011
ms 89.181 ms
13 GOOGLE-INC.car1.Seattle1.Level3.net (4.79.104.74) 136.810 ms
137.203 ms 137.434 ms
14 209.85.249.32 (209.85.249.32) 142.580 ms 142.960 ms *
15 * * *
16 * * *
17 * * *
18 * * *
19 * * *
20 * * *
21 * * *
22 * * *
23 * * *
24 * * *
25 * * *
26 * * *
27 * * *
28 * * *
29 * * *
30 * * *
root@mepis8:/home/mark#


--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

2009/7/31 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 02:25:40PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
>>
>> On a slightly more on-topic note, and tie things together, I've been
>> having DNS issues with all wikipedia-related sites off and on
>> recently, and I called my ISP (megaline.kg???I'm in Kyrgyzstan for the
>> summer), and they checked it out, reporting "that site works fine for
>> us, and it's not one of the sites we block."  .....  Yeah.  But then
>> even in Australia they overtly block certain sites, iiuc.
>>
>
>  Do you know if their connection goes through China?


Interesting question—is there a nice linuxy way to find out?

(My assumption was that they were going through Russia—the economic
(maybe), political, and social ties are much stronger (plus the roads
are better;)—but one never can be sure with such assumptions.)

--
Jonathan


> Last time I
> checked, a lot of ISPs in Central Asia actually go through China to get
> to most of the rest of the world. And depending on what you are looking
> for, China may be blocking it. I don't really trust ISPs in Asia (and
> many other parts of the world) to know what they are doing. After all,
> many allow tons of hackers and spammers to prosper and they do almost
> nothing about it, plus they do stupid stuff like broadcast default
> routes for Youtube to go back to themselves, which is what happened on
> that Sunday back in 2007 when Youtube suddenly dropped off the net for
> everyone.
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 02:25:40PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
>
> On a slightly more on-topic note, and tie things together, I've been
> having DNS issues with all wikipedia-related sites off and on
> recently, and I called my ISP (megaline.kg???I'm in Kyrgyzstan for the
> summer), and they checked it out, reporting "that site works fine for
> us, and it's not one of the sites we block." ..... Yeah. But then
> even in Australia they overtly block certain sites, iiuc.
>

Do you know if their connection goes through China? Last time I
checked, a lot of ISPs in Central Asia actually go through China to get
to most of the rest of the world. And depending on what you are looking
for, China may be blocking it. I don't really trust ISPs in Asia (and
many other parts of the world) to know what they are doing. After all,
many allow tons of hackers and spammers to prosper and they do almost
nothing about it, plus they do stupid stuff like broadcast default
routes for Youtube to go back to themselves, which is what happened on
that Sunday back in 2007 when Youtube suddenly dropped off the net for
everyone.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?



On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Jonathan North Washington <jonwashi@indiana.edu> wrote:
2009/7/31 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:32:20PM GMT, Mark Krenz [mark@slugbug.org] said the following:
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:14:50PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
>> >
>> > Yeah, it's pretty consistent, especially in the west, though in some
>> > places (e.g. Central Asia) it takes a different form.  For example,
>> > the decision making power is distributed among a much smaller section
>> > of the population, and a much higher percent gets screwed over by the
>> > decisions.
>>
>>  Yes but if you pull back enough to see the bigger picture you see that
>> what happens eventually is that the right side of the graph overthrows
>> the left side in a revolution, thus deciding how things will go. You
>> may be able to surpress what the left side wants for a while, but not
>> forever.
>>
>
>  I'm sorry I meant to say the left side (the people) overthrows the
> right side (the government).

And then an elite few become the government and the cycle starts over.

On a slightly more on-topic note, and tie things together, I've been
having DNS issues with all wikipedia-related sites off and on
recently, and I called my ISP (megaline.kg—I'm in Kyrgyzstan for the
summer), and they checked it out, reporting "that site works fine for
us, and it's not one of the sites we block."  .....  Yeah.  But then
even in Australia they overtly block certain sites, iiuc.

--
Jonathan

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Well, due to the recent mess in Chinese Turkmenistan, we still can't get anything like Facebook, (Youtube has been blocked for some long time now), or anything with "blog" in the address. Ha! Not to mention a number of other services.

Matthew

Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

2009/7/31 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:32:20PM GMT, Mark Krenz [mark@slugbug.org] said the following:
>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:14:50PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
>> >
>> > Yeah, it's pretty consistent, especially in the west, though in some
>> > places (e.g. Central Asia) it takes a different form.  For example,
>> > the decision making power is distributed among a much smaller section
>> > of the population, and a much higher percent gets screwed over by the
>> > decisions.
>>
>>  Yes but if you pull back enough to see the bigger picture you see that
>> what happens eventually is that the right side of the graph overthrows
>> the left side in a revolution, thus deciding how things will go. You
>> may be able to surpress what the left side wants for a while, but not
>> forever.
>>
>
>  I'm sorry I meant to say the left side (the people) overthrows the
> right side (the government).

And then an elite few become the government and the cycle starts over.

On a slightly more on-topic note, and tie things together, I've been
having DNS issues with all wikipedia-related sites off and on
recently, and I called my ISP (megaline.kg—I'm in Kyrgyzstan for the
summer), and they checked it out, reporting "that site works fine for
us, and it's not one of the sites we block." ..... Yeah. But then
even in Australia they overtly block certain sites, iiuc.

--
Jonathan

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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?



On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:32:20PM GMT, Mark Krenz [mark@slugbug.org] said the following:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:14:50PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
> >
> > Yeah, it's pretty consistent, especially in the west, though in some
> > places (e.g. Central Asia) it takes a different form.  For example,
> > the decision making power is distributed among a much smaller section
> > of the population, and a much higher percent gets screwed over by the
> > decisions.
>
>  Yes but if you pull back enough to see the bigger picture you see that
> what happens eventually is that the right side of the graph overthrows
> the left side in a revolution, thus deciding how things will go. You
> may be able to surpress what the left side wants for a while, but not
> forever.
>

 I'm sorry I meant to say the left side (the people) overthrows the
right side (the government).


--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Problem is, every time so far in history that the "people" has overthrown the government, the people end up just having been hoodwinked by a worse tyrant, who then takes the reigns, usually in the name of "equality". I know, I live in China, and I study my history. There is no such thing as equality in a socialist system. Period. Unless you consider the whole thing going down the drain 'equality'...

Matthew

Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:32:20PM GMT, Mark Krenz [mark@slugbug.org] said the following:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:14:50PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
> >
> > Yeah, it's pretty consistent, especially in the west, though in some
> > places (e.g. Central Asia) it takes a different form. For example,
> > the decision making power is distributed among a much smaller section
> > of the population, and a much higher percent gets screwed over by the
> > decisions.
>
> Yes but if you pull back enough to see the bigger picture you see that
> what happens eventually is that the right side of the graph overthrows
> the left side in a revolution, thus deciding how things will go. You
> may be able to surpress what the left side wants for a while, but not
> forever.
>

I'm sorry I meant to say the left side (the people) overthrows the
right side (the government).


--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:14:50PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
>
> Yeah, it's pretty consistent, especially in the west, though in some
> places (e.g. Central Asia) it takes a different form. For example,
> the decision making power is distributed among a much smaller section
> of the population, and a much higher percent gets screwed over by the
> decisions.

Yes but if you pull back enough to see the bigger picture you see that
what happens eventually is that the right side of the graph overthrows
the left side in a revolution, thus deciding how things will go. You
may be able to surpress what the left side wants for a while, but not
forever.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

2009/7/31 Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>:
> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Jonathan North
> Washington<jonwashi@indiana.edu> wrote:
>> This isn't necessarily a "world"-wide problem.  I think it goes back
>> to the way America's democracy is set up: a system for the majority.
>> It's fair, in that most people get what they want most of the time,
>> but the problem is, in such a system, someone always looses.  The
>> economy is structured this way too.
>>
>> In an ideal America (or probably anywhere), both the economy and the
>> government would be structured so that everyone always gets enough—but
>> then, the people who currently get everything would have to be willing
>> to compromise (and not always get everything).  One can always
>> dream...
>>
>> Anyway, I agree with your statement, but I'd probably reword it to say
>> "If you want to succeed in this *America*, ..." ;)
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan
>> http://jnw.name/
>
> With my foreigner hat on, I can confirm that this bug is consistent
> and repeatable, both inside and outside America.

And as any project maintainer, I'll call you crazy. Just kidding ;)

Yeah, it's pretty consistent, especially in the west, though in some
places (e.g. Central Asia) it takes a different form. For example,
the decision making power is distributed among a much smaller section
of the population, and a much higher percent gets screwed over by the
decisions.

--
Jonathan

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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Jonathan North
Washington<jonwashi@indiana.edu> wrote:
> This isn't necessarily a "world"-wide problem.  I think it goes back
> to the way America's democracy is set up: a system for the majority.
> It's fair, in that most people get what they want most of the time,
> but the problem is, in such a system, someone always looses.  The
> economy is structured this way too.
>
> In an ideal America (or probably anywhere), both the economy and the
> government would be structured so that everyone always gets enough—but
> then, the people who currently get everything would have to be willing
> to compromise (and not always get everything).  One can always
> dream...
>
> Anyway, I agree with your statement, but I'd probably reword it to say
> "If you want to succeed in this *America*, ..." ;)
>
> --
> Jonathan
> http://jnw.name/

With my foreigner hat on, I can confirm that this bug is consistent
and repeatable, both inside and outside America.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Did ATT mess up your cell phone, too?

2009/7/30 Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>:
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 03:26:19PM GMT, Barry Schatz [sorbetninja@gmail.com] said the following:
>>
>> And now, my obligatory rant about timezones. It's (mostly) a joke.
>> If we did away with timezones, this wouldn't be an issue. No time
>> changes, no wondering what time it is in another part of the world, and
>> greatly reduced jetlag would all be benefits. The weather reports
>> already have sunrise and sunset times, so it can't be that hard to add
>> in local high noon and midnight times as well. The workday in the
>> "Eastern" timezone would go from 12:00 through 20:00. Best of all, we
>> wouldn't have the nasty uptick in driving accidents and fatalities every
>> Spring when daylight savings time steals an hour.
>>
>
>  Something I've learned over the years is that in a debate of stupidity
> vs. intelligence, stupidity usually wins for quite intelligent reasons.
>
>      XXX
>    XXXXXXX
>   XXXXXXXXX
>  XXXXXXXXXX X
> XXXXXXXXXXXX XXX
>  Everyone    You
>   else
>
>  Being a Linux list, I think its safe to say that everyone on the list
> falls into the right side of the graph or at least in the right half of
> the graph.  Unfortunately, what happens is that the left side of the
> graph is full of complainers and people who don't want to
> learn/work/care. But strangely enough they also represent a large amount
> of money and a lot of voting power that is mostly controlled by the
> person on the TV who can wave a magic wand.  So it winds up being a
> stupid PR problem.  In order to appease the left part of the graph and
> keep the money and votes flowing, the right part has to "settle" and
> then we get stuck with crap.
>
> Many things have benefited from this property including:
>
>  VHS
>  Microsoft
>  AOL
>  Reality TV shows
>  George W. Bush
>  Florida
>
>  If you want to succeed in this world, you have to be able to leverage
> stupidity and try to avoid being part of a two-way decision.
> Unfortunately the tech industry is riddled with those.

This isn't necessarily a "world"-wide problem. I think it goes back
to the way America's democracy is set up: a system for the majority.
It's fair, in that most people get what they want most of the time,
but the problem is, in such a system, someone always looses. The
economy is structured this way too.

In an ideal America (or probably anywhere), both the economy and the
government would be structured so that everyone always gets enough—but
then, the people who currently get everything would have to be willing
to compromise (and not always get everything). One can always
dream...

Anyway, I agree with your statement, but I'd probably reword it to say
"If you want to succeed in this *America*, ..." ;)

--
Jonathan
http://jnw.name/

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