BLUG: 11/09/09

Monday, November 9, 2009

Re: [BLUG] newbee

Steven Black wrote:
> Mark Warner wrote:
>>
>> I long ago settled on MEPIS (Lenny based, KDE 3.5.10, tweaked and
>> massaged to my liking). That said, one of the best learning experiences
>> I've ever had -- and one that has made me appreciate the work that the
>> distro maintainers do all the more -- is to take a Debian netinstall,
>> UNcheck everything and start out with a totally stripped-down CLI
>> install, and build it up from scratch.
>
> It sounds like you're basically doing Linux From Scratch
> <http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/> except using Debian as the earliest
> stage, and without using a handbook. -- Is that right?

I'd say it's a lot more elementary that a Linux From Scratch build.

I start with a base Debian CLI install. The first command I do after
logging in for the first time is

apt-get install kdm synaptic kdebase

and go from there, installing packages with Synaptic. I've learned
enough to know a few tricks, like needing to install the cups and
foomatic packages to get printer support. Sometimes I'll go with the
various metapackages that Debian offers; it kind of defeats the purpose
of trying to learn exactly what needs to be in place to perform a
particular task, but it keeps the frustration level down to a manageable
level.

--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] noob question in more detal

--- On Mon, 11/9/09, blug-request@cs.indiana.edu <blug-request@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

> From: blug-request@cs.indiana.edu <blug-request@cs.indiana.edu>
> Subject: BLUG Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7
> To: blug@cs.indiana.edu
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 5:41 AM
> Send BLUG mailing list submissions
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: How do you listen to music? (Sim?n
> Ruiz)
>    2. newbee (ted mishler)
>    3. Re: How do you listen to music?
> (Sidarth Dasari)
>    4. Re: newbee (Aaron W. Hsu)
>    5. Re: newbee (Mark Warner)
>    6. Re: newbee (Sidarth Dasari)
>    7. Re: newbee (Mark Krenz)
>    8. Re: newbee (Aaron W. Hsu)
>    9. Re: newbee (Kelly McEvilly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:30:45 -0500
> From: Sim?n Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] How do you listen to music?
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID:
>     <6535daca0911080930y20fa00cexdb69bfec26534486@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Jeremy L. Gaddis <jeremy@evilrouters.net>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Ben Shewmaker <ben@shewbox.org>
> wrote:
> >> Sitting here listening to some music this morning
> and got to wondering, how
> >> do other people listen to music?? All on the
> computer?? CD's?? LP's?
> >> iPods?? How does everybody else listen to music??
> Here's how I do it:
> >
> > For me, it's Pandora. ?At home, at work, and in the
> car.
>
> Lately, I've been playing it on the speaker of my new HTC
> Hero. It's
> like a little boombox in my pocket that follows me around
> the house. I
> can plug headphones in when I don't wanna bug people.
>
> There's also a Pandora app for Android. ;-)
>
> Sim?n
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:25:56 -0800 (PST)
> From: ted mishler <tmishler@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [BLUG] newbee
> To: blug@cs.indiana.edu
> Message-ID: <13472.4521.qm@web110209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to linux, and downloaded XPressLinux as an iso,
> and it works great. I'd like to learn a few things though,
> and wondered when the group is going to get together? Or is
> it that everyone just emails questions now?
>
> Thanks...Ted
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 16:37:21 -0500
> From: Sidarth Dasari <Sidster802@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] How do you listen to music?
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID:
>     <1af14ff60911081337m73651ee4o605d83abc3daa1ce@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I listen either through last fm or through Songbird. Love
> all those
> great addons for songbird. There are some that give it
> great
> integration with last fm
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Sim?n Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Jeremy L. Gaddis
> <jeremy@evilrouters.net>
> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Ben Shewmaker
> <ben@shewbox.org>
> wrote:
> >>> Sitting here listening to some music this
> morning and got to wondering, how
> >>> do other people listen to music?? All on the
> computer?? CD's?? LP's?
> >>> iPods?? How does everybody else listen to
> music?? Here's how I do it:
> >>
> >> For me, it's Pandora. ?At home, at work, and in
> the car.
> >
> > Lately, I've been playing it on the speaker of my new
> HTC Hero. It's
> > like a little boombox in my pocket that follows me
> around the house. I
> > can plug headphones in when I don't wanna bug people.
> >
> > There's also a Pandora app for Android. ;-)
> >
> > Sim?n
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:39:00 -0500
> From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
> To: tmishler@yahoo.com,
> "Bloomington LINUX Users Group"
>     <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID: <op.u23ifafw0p3ku8@localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1;
> format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:25:56 -0500, ted mishler <tmishler@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I'd like to learn a few things though
>
> What would you like to learn?
>
>     Aaron W. Hsu
>
> --
> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the
> good of its
> victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:01:18 -0500
> From: Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID: <4AF73FAE.1070107@att.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
>
>
>
> ted mishler wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am new to linux, and downloaded XPressLinux as an
> iso, and it works great. I'd like to learn a few things
> though, and wondered when the group is going to get
> together? Or is it that everyone just emails questions now?
>
> XPressLinux is one I hadn't heard of. Appears to be an old
> (circa 2006,
> perhaps abandoned?) Kubuntu derivative.
>
> That being the case, I can probably give you some general
> tips and
> pointers from a relatively new user's standpoint, but won't
> be able to
> address that distro specifically.
>
> If you'd like to try something else, something that's
> current but
> similar, I would recommend you take a look at SimplyMEPIS
> v8:
>
> https://www.mepis.org/
> http://www.mepislovers.org/forums/index.php
>
> Like Kubuntu, it's based on Debian, uses the KDE desktop
> (the tried and
> true version 3.5.10), and is geared to the newcomer.
>
> http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/40264:
>
> "SimplyMepis - This is one of the Debian derivatives that
> takes a stable
> base and builds it into one mighty fine desktop
> distributions. It was
> one of the first to offer one of those install and go
> solutions. It was
> the first to include that proprietary code others avoided
> for legal
> reasons. They offer paid support options, but not on the
> scale of
> Novell, Red Hat, or Mandriva. And it always looks pretty
> too.
> SimplyMepis is another one that pops into mind if I need a
> quick, easy,
> and guaranteed successful system."
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> MEPIS Linux
> Registered Linux User #415318
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:15:19 -0500
> From: Sidarth Dasari <Sidster802@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID:
>     <1af14ff60911081415i5d740efeob378931ef9a0d69c@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Ive heard Linux Mint is also quite user friendly for new
> users, and of
> course if there is always Ubuntu or Kubuntu which your
> distro is based
> off of
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 5:01 PM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > ted mishler wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am new to linux, and downloaded XPressLinux as
> an iso, and it works great. I'd like to learn a few things
> though, and wondered when the group is going to get
> together? Or is it that everyone just emails questions now?
> >
> > XPressLinux is one I hadn't heard of. Appears to be an
> old (circa 2006,
> > perhaps abandoned?) Kubuntu derivative.
> >
> > That being the case, I can probably give you some
> general tips and
> > pointers from a relatively new user's standpoint, but
> won't be able to
> > address that distro specifically.
> >
> > If you'd like to try something else, something that's
> current but
> > similar, I would recommend you take a look at
> SimplyMEPIS v8:
> >
> > https://www.mepis.org/
> > http://www.mepislovers.org/forums/index.php
> >
> > Like Kubuntu, it's based on Debian, uses the KDE
> desktop (the tried and
> > true version 3.5.10), and is geared to the newcomer.
> >
> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/40264:
> >
> > "SimplyMepis - This is one of the Debian derivatives
> that takes a stable
> > base and builds it into one mighty fine desktop
> distributions. It was
> > one of the first to offer one of those install and go
> solutions. It was
> > the first to include that proprietary code others
> avoided for legal
> > reasons. They offer paid support options, but not on
> the scale of
> > Novell, Red Hat, or Mandriva. And it always looks
> pretty too.
> > SimplyMepis is another one that pops into mind if I
> need a quick, easy,
> > and guaranteed successful system."
> >
> > --
> > Mark Warner
> > MEPIS Linux
> > Registered Linux User #415318
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 22:24:11 +0000
> From: Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
> To: tmishler@yahoo.com,
> Bloomington LINUX Users Group
>     <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID: <20091108222411.GU5179@arvo.suso.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:25:56PM GMT, ted mishler [tmishler@yahoo.com]
> said the following:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am new to linux, and downloaded XPressLinux as an
> iso, and it works great. I'd like to learn a few things
> though, and wondered when the group is going to get
> together? Or is it that everyone just emails questions now?
> >
>
> Hello Ted, welcome to the list and to the
> group. I think you'll find
> lots of friendly help here. Hopefully we can get a
> meeting together
> soon, perhaps a meet and greet would do well.
>
> You are welcome to choose your own distribution of
> course and I don't
> think any of us are criticizing your choice of XPressLinux,
> but there
> are some things to watch out for. Since there are so
> many distributions
> available for Linux, it can be confusing. You will
> probably be ok with
> most of the distributions available, but this particular
> distribution
> seems to no longer be maintained as the download link is no
> longer
> available and the domain for the distribution seems to have
> expired and
> taken over by an advertiser.
>
> Because of this, It would be a good idea to ensure
> that what you
> downloaded was indeed XPressLinux and not something
> else. Do you
> remember when you downloaded it and from where?
>
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:46:39 -0500
> From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID: <op.u23tv10o0p3ku8@localhost>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1;
> format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:15:19 -0500, Sidarth Dasari <Sidster802@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Ive heard Linux Mint is also quite user friendly for
> new users, and of
> > course if there is always Ubuntu or Kubuntu which your
> distro is based
> > off of
>
> Alright, that's it, I have to throw in Slackware here. :)
> The installer is
> a little intimidating if you don't know how to use an
> ncurses partition
> utility, but other than that, Slackware is great for the
> starting user who
> wants to learn about Linux. On the other hand, if you don't
> want to learn
> a different modus operandi from Windows, other systems
> might work better
> for you. :-)
>
>     Aaron W. Hsu
>
> --
> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the
> good of its
> victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 08:41:14 -0500 (EST)
> From: Kelly McEvilly <kellym@wbhcp.com>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <18755353.1341257774104203.JavaMail.SYSTEM@ws1033-win2k>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> OK, since the topic was raised, I'm pretty much a complete
> noob too.
>
> I'm concentrating on CentOS right now.
>
> Good, bad, indifferent???
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 8:46:39 PM GMT -05:00
> US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
>
> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:15:19 -0500, Sidarth Dasari <Sidster802@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Ive heard Linux Mint is also quite user friendly for
> new users, and of
> > course if there is always Ubuntu or Kubuntu which your
> distro is based
> > off of
>
> Alright, that's it, I have to throw in Slackware here. :)
> The installer is
> a little intimidating if you don't know how to use an
> ncurses partition
> utility, but other than that, Slackware is great for the
> starting user who
> wants to learn about Linux. On the other hand, if you don't
> want to learn
> a different modus operandi from Windows, other systems
> might work better
> for you. :-)
>
>     Aaron W. Hsu
>
> --
> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the
> good of its
> victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
> End of BLUG Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7
> ***********************************
> Actually, I was wondering how to connect my ide to usb cable to xpresslinux. It seems to work sometimes in windows, but somehow, maybe I chkdsked it or scandisked it. I was warned not to do that, but after a power failure, I now can't access the 320gig drive at all, so I guess I'll need to reformat in 32bit mode?
Any tips would help.
Don't remember where I downloaded it.
Thanks - Oh, and if we could get together sometime, that'd be great.
-Ted

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Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 03:06:53PM -0500, Aaron W. Hsu wrote:
> Sophisticated package management can be a very nice convenience, but many
> people presume that having all this comes for free. There is a cost
> associated with getting all your packages to just come together like that.
>
> 1) Often times, the package may not match the vanilla documentation that
> is available for that package, making it a little more difficult to use,
> since you have to keep in mind the local tweaks that were made.

This is coupled with the other side of this issue: Sometimes packages
do not follow established Linux standards -- like the Linux File-system
Standard. I cringe any time I see an application want to install itself
in /usr/local/<app_name>. That's just not how /usr/local is supposed
to be used. (The structure of /usr/local is supposed to mirror that of
/usr.)

If your expectations are package-specific, you'll be looking for things
in different places than Linux-standard locations. Yes, it means that
when you read the package-specific documents things will be in different
places than on your system, however these locations are consistent
for all products on your system, and within very little time you come
to expect things to be in the right (for Linux -- not the product)
location.

> 2) Doing this modification requires a good deal of effort, so you end
> up with version lag. This is especially pronounced on Debian.

Debian is trying hard to reduce this in the future. See
http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090729 "Debian decides to adopt
time-based release freezes".

The DEB-style package management is much less arduous than the
RPM-style. This is related simply to the complexity of the package
specifications for each.

The big problem with Debian was historically the vast majority of
the user community were using something other than the latest stable
release. Outsiders only looked at the stable release. Insiders paid no
attention to the stable release, only using the "unstable" release. Due
to so many people using the "unstable" release, people became unwilling
to update the packages as frequently, worried that they'd break things
for people. Debian has since adopted an "experimental" release to take
over the role of what used to be handled by "unstable". My understanding
is that this has eased the issue.

> 3) The benefits you list above come as the result of careful
> packaging, not really as an innate feature of a package system. The
> package system provides for this, but doesn't actually do this for
> you. When dealing with distributions that try to stay more up-to-date
> with the latest package versions, you see more mistakes and less
> stability.

That is true, careful packaging is typically important. I think of DEB
packages as being easy to create non-compliant packages. (That is, it is
easy to Debian-ize a package, but it takes some knowledge/work to get it
policy-compliant.)

If you check out the system used by Foresight Linux it really looks
designed for the bleeding edge. It merges configuration changes
between what ships with the package with the user-supplied changes
without the simplicity of the DEB-based system. (I've heard that some
RPM-based systems over-write user-edited configuration files without any
user-interaction!)

More interesting, with Foresight Linux you can roll-back any package
update back to the point you initially installed the system from CD.

I've heard that when the RedHat developers present new open-source
packages to their local Linux User-Group, before the meeting is over
one of the Foresight people will have downloaded the source, created a
Foresight package, uploaded it to the repository for folks to get, and
it will be available for anyone to use. It's explicitly designed as a
package management system with very little overhead to creating new
packages.

> In short, I am not arguing that these are terrible systems and that
> everyone should use Slackware's basic tools (many Slackware users
> use an apt-get like equivalent), but we should be aware of the costs
> associated with the benefits that a fairly complex system like
> Debian's provides. Fortunately, in the Linux world, there is choice in
> whether you want to manage things a la Slackware, or a la Debian, and
> there are multiple distributions based around each; it's just good to
> know what you get and what it costs to use each.

My first Linux distribution was Slackware -- back in 1995. My father
bought me a book (containing free/open-source docs) that included a
Slackware CD. I'm sure it wasn't even the then-current Slackware, but it
got me hooked (on Linux, if not on Slackware).

Slackware is definitely one of those distros that a person should try
just to see how it is similar/different than the others. It is really
significantly different than the others.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] Fwd: from an unsubscribed user

it was for lunch. not after work hours.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McEvilly" <kellym@wbhcp.com>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2009 3:19:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Fwd: from an unsubscribed user

many moons ago when i worked AND lived in bloomington i would meet a big group of people at Nick's on the third thursday of every month. it was like jumbalaya day or something.

this group was db admins, mail server admins, help desk, programmers, network people, the whole gamut. a little different, but kinda the same idea.

i'm just saying...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2009 3:14:31 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Fwd: from an unsubscribed user

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:54:43 -0500, Shei, Shing-Shong
<shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

> I would like to attend meetings, like once a month.
> But just email traffic, without any meetings where I
> can ask questions, is NOT useful to me.

Where are the meetings, anyways? :) We really could do one, and that would
probably be nice.

Aaron W. Hsu

--
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] newbee

Mark,

It sounds like you're basically doing Linux From Scratch
<http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/> except using Debian as the earliest
stage, and without using a handbook. -- Is that right?

I've done the Linux From Scratch thing, and I did a bit of the "Beyond
Linux From Scratch" stuff. It is useful for a learning experience, but I
wouldn't recommend you attempt it on a machine you actually need to use
on a regular basis. :)

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 01:49:23PM -0500, Mark Warner wrote:
> I long ago settled on MEPIS (Lenny based, KDE 3.5.10, tweaked and
> massaged to my liking). That said, one of the best learning experiences
> I've ever had -- and one that has made me appreciate the work that the
> distro maintainers do all the more -- is to take a Debian netinstall,
> UNcheck everything and start out with a totally stripped-down CLI
> install, and build it up from scratch. I've gone through the exercise on
> three or four occasions, with varying degrees of success. On one of the
> attempts some time back, I ended up with a very workable Etch KDE
> desktop, that would do most anything I asked of it. Later attempts with
> Lenny on my laptop haven't been so satisfying. <g>
>
> --
> Mark Warner

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http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Fwd: from an unsubscribed user

many moons ago when i worked AND lived in bloomington i would meet a big group of people at Nick's on the third thursday of every month. it was like jumbalaya day or something.

this group was db admins, mail server admins, help desk, programmers, network people, the whole gamut. a little different, but kinda the same idea.

i'm just saying...

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:54:43 -0500, Shei, Shing-Shong
<shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

> I would like to attend meetings, like once a month.
> But just email traffic, without any meetings where I
> can ask questions, is NOT useful to me.

Where are the meetings, anyways? :) We really could do one, and that would
probably be nice.

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] Fwd: from an unsubscribed user

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:54:43 -0500, Shei, Shing-Shong
<shei@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:

> I would like to attend meetings, like once a month.
> But just email traffic, without any meetings where I
> can ask questions, is NOT useful to me.

Where are the meetings, anyways? :) We really could do one, and that would
probably be nice.

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 12:14:42 -0500, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu>
wrote:

> I mean, with any DEB-based distribution when you install a package it
> will (1) use sane defaults, or (2) ask just enough questions. This
> results in packages that always work when installed.

Sophisticated package management can be a very nice convenience, but many
people presume that having all this comes for free. There is a cost
associated with getting all your packages to just come together like that.

1) Often times, the package may not match the vanilla documentation that
is available for that package, making it a little more difficult to use,
since you have to keep in mind the local tweaks that were made.

2) Doing this modification requires a good deal of effort, so you end up
with version lag. This is especially pronounced on Debian.

3) The benefits you list above come as the result of careful packaging,
not really as an innate feature of a package system. The package system
provides for this, but doesn't actually do this for you. When dealing with
distributions that try to stay more up-to-date with the latest package
versions, you see more mistakes and less stability.

4) It's also not necessary to have such a system in order to get the same
level of "it just works" functionality. Actually, there is an
anti-movement (in Slackware) that avoid explicit dependency restriction in
the packaging system by default (though you can use programs that will do
it for you), which enables you to track updates and make in place changes
with less overhead. The benefits of such a system are that making any
changes to updates to the system can usually be done with minimal hassle,
and you have greater flexibility and simpler administration, but the cost
is a manual or mental overhead in dealing with dependencies (whether this
is high or low depends on the software you're working with in particular).

In short, I am not arguing that these are terrible systems and that
everyone should use Slackware's basic tools (many Slackware users use an
apt-get like equivalent), but we should be aware of the costs associated
with the benefits that a fairly complex system like Debian's provides.
Fortunately, in the Linux world, there is choice in whether you want to
manage things a la Slackware, or a la Debian, and there are multiple
distributions based around each; it's just good to know what you get and
what it costs to use each.

Aaron W. Hsu

Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Mon, 09 Nov 2009 08:41:14 -0500, Kelly McEvilly <kellym@wbhcp.com>
wrote:

> Good, bad, indifferent???

Well, from a newbie standpoint, you'll be fine. :-) The only real reason I
see to use a RedHat based distribution is commercial support (hence, I'm
not a big fan of Fedora), so I generally stick with RHEL if I am going to
use something like that.

But, as a beginner, starting with something like CentOS should be pretty
good because you'll probably learn a fairly standard setup. Unfortunately,
some people learn Linux on distributions that have lots of special tools,
and this results in them not understanding how to transition from one
Linux to another. RedHat and Debian based systems are the norm, and they
provide a good starting base for learning the majority of Linux processes.
They'll all have their unique quirks, though, and so be ready when you
reach your "gotta try them all!" stage, that there could be some shock
involved. :-)

Aaron W. Hsu

[BLUG] Fwd: from an unsubscribed user

Hi,

I just want to forward this bounced message to the list.

----------------
I would like to attend meetings, like once a month.
But just email traffic, without any meetings where I
can ask questions, is NOT useful to me.

ps.
I have only used Linux for going on 3 years.
thank you
-----------------

Have a good day!

List Moderator
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Re: [BLUG] newbee

Schlemmer, Jared wrote:

> I realized I can learn a lot more and have more fun by customizing one
> distribution than obsessing over deciding one. So, after all that
> rambling I guess what I'm trying to say is just find one that's known to
> be stable and well supported and play with it until it is exactly what
> you want.

I long ago settled on MEPIS (Lenny based, KDE 3.5.10, tweaked and
massaged to my liking). That said, one of the best learning experiences
I've ever had -- and one that has made me appreciate the work that the
distro maintainers do all the more -- is to take a Debian netinstall,
UNcheck everything and start out with a totally stripped-down CLI
install, and build it up from scratch. I've gone through the exercise on
three or four occasions, with varying degrees of success. On one of the
attempts some time back, I ended up with a very workable Etch KDE
desktop, that would do most anything I asked of it. Later attempts with
Lenny on my laptop haven't been so satisfying. <g>

--
Mark Warner
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Re: [BLUG] newbee

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kelly,

If you are thinking about staying with a more reserved distro like that,
I recommend Scientific Linux:
https://www.scientificlinux.org/
Documentation and FAQ
https://www.scientificlinux.org/documentation/

It has the backing of CERN and Fermilab, which is impressive in and of
itself. They also have tacked on some additonal tiny bits of software
like ndiswrapper for those pesky laptops. I am still getting to know it
myself, but plan on using it instead of CentOS for enterprise linux
exploration goodness.

Robert

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Kelly McEvilly wrote:

> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 08:41:14 -0500 (EST)
> From: Kelly McEvilly <kellym@wbhcp.com>
> Reply-To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
>
> OK, since the topic was raised, I'm pretty much a complete noob too.
>
> I'm concentrating on CentOS right now.
>
> Good, bad, indifferent???
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 8:46:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
>
> On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:15:19 -0500, Sidarth Dasari <Sidster802@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ive heard Linux Mint is also quite user friendly for new users, and of
>> course if there is always Ubuntu or Kubuntu which your distro is based
>> off of
>
> Alright, that's it, I have to throw in Slackware here. :) The installer is
> a little intimidating if you don't know how to use an ncurses partition
> utility, but other than that, Slackware is great for the starting user who
> wants to learn about Linux. On the other hand, if you don't want to learn
> a different modus operandi from Windows, other systems might work better
> for you. :-)
>
> Aaron W. Hsu
>
> --
> Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
> victims may be the most oppressive. -- C. S. Lewis
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

- ---Robert Freeman-Day
- ---------------
I would really like you to be on my side,
but the side you show me isn't what I had in mind.

- -Judybats
GPG Public Key:
http:keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xBA9DF9ED3E4C7D36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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iEYEARECAAYFAkr4XlYACgkQup357T5MfTYtUACeMnAPWNRhvmFaGRshGf90Aw/C
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Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 09:08:10AM -0500, "Schlemmer, Jared" wrote:
> I was reading up on other distros and was thinking about changing, but
> the great thing about Linux that I finally realized was that if you use
> a good, reliable and well supported distribution as your base, you can
> customize almost all of them to be exactly what you want. So if you
> start with Ubuntu and realize you prefer KDE, it can be installed and
> ready to be used in 5 minutes.

Ah, the reason that almost everything can be installed quickly and
easily is that you're currently using a Debian-derived distribution.

With pretty much any of the Debian-derived distributions you never
need to hunt for things or compile source. You just go to your
package manager and it is probably already there.

RPM-based distributions traditionally do not provide such variety.

The Ubuntu (LTS) system I type this on has available packages for
13 mail transport agents, 14 CGI-capable web-servers (not counting
the Apache MPM's separately), 15+ shells, 40+ X window managers, 19+
terminal emulators, and for desktop systems there are games unending...

Trying a variety of distributions can be a learning experience. Ideally,
you want to have a separate machine to test them on. (The installers
should allow you to avoid reformatting the /home partition, but if
you're unfamiliar with their installation tools you may not know how to
specify this. Be safe and just use a separate machine.)

I don't know what sort of value would be gained by trying "yet another
XXX distribution", but it can be a learning experience to try one
DEB-based system, one RPM-based distribution, etc. They do things very,
very differently sometimes.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] newbee

Anyone that has only used an RPM-based distribution should really try a
DEB-based distribution at some point. -- Just to see some of the other
options.

I've heard a bunch of the Redhat Engineers jumped boat and formed
Foresight Linux: http://www.foresightlinux.org/ I've not used it
myself, but I do know it uses a package management system that is a
full generation beyond the (good) package management systems in other
distributions.

When I try to use RPM-based distributions, I almost always come away
wondering just exactly who the competition of the product was supposed
to be.

I mean, with any DEB-based distribution when you install a package it
will (1) use sane defaults, or (2) ask just enough questions. This
results in packages that always work when installed.

My experience is that RPM-based systems do not ask questions even when
they really need to.

Plus you have the whole upgrading thing... DEB-based distributions
have had in-place upgrades from one major version to the next for 15+
years. Even current Fedora releases "highly recommend" you perform fresh
installs instead of in-place upgrades.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 09:10:57AM -0500, Kelly McEvilly wrote:
> Well, I chose CentOS mainly because I maintain a RHEL 5 mail server.
>
> I can do the really basic stuff, but that's about it.
>
> I need to learn a lot more about it though. Troubleshooting services,
> disk management, updates, etc.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Krenz" <mark@slugbug.org>
> To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 9, 2009 8:57:17 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee
>
> On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 01:41:14PM GMT, Kelly McEvilly [kellym@wbhcp.com] said the following:
> > OK, since the topic was raised, I'm pretty much a complete noob too.
> >
> > I'm concentrating on CentOS right now.
> >
> > Good, bad, indifferent???
> >
>
> CentOS is pretty solid as its widely used, based on very mature
> technologies (rpm package management), well maintained and is the direct
> copy of another very important commercial distribution (Red Hat). So
> its a good choice. It tends to be a little behind when it comes to
> desktop stuff. Its mostly used for servers and when people want a
> desktop distribution based on Red Hat stuff they use Fedora. But using
> CentOS for desktops is fine too.
>
>
> Some common criteria I use when deciding which distribution to use are:
>
> o Well maintained (packages are updated frequently)
> o Good package management that has good dependency management (RedHat
> used to be a failure in this area)
> o Generally free of bugs
> o Doesn't have weird restrictions
> o Good user community.
>
> Because Linux distros are usually supported by the community, if you
> use a distribution that is not widely used, you will have limited places
> to go when you have questions. On the other hand, sometimes small
> distributions are so eager to get their distro going in the beginning
> that the help is excellent. Usually those distros end up being big
> eventually.
>
> The weird restrictions one can be more subtle, for instance one thing
> I noticed with the XpressLinux distro is that on this page:
>
> http://www.debianadmin.com/xpresslinux-a-new-kubuntu-based-linux-operating-system-for-windows-users.html
>
> In the comments the admin says "xpresslinux is only for desktops"
>
> I kinda doubt this is actually true, but it if was really this way and
> there wasn't an easy way to install Apache, why? I mean I understand
> its trying to be like Windows, but there is no reason to restrict what
> software a user can install like Windows does.

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Re: [BLUG] How do you listen to music?

In the car, I listen to Sirius. Can barely live without it.

At home/office I usually listen to internet radio. The links below are mp3 streams.

wfpk.org (Public radio Louisville, KY. Huge variety. See playlists online.)

http://streaming.win.net:7070/wfpk_hb.mp3

kuwl.org (Public radio Laramie, Wyoming. All Jazz.)

http://wprhqstream4.uwyo.edu:8000/kuwl128.mp3

grooveradio.com (All electronic, DJ)

http://mp3-hb.grooveradio.com

I also like to listen to live recordings of concerts from the Live Music Archive. And other stuff on archive.org.

http://www.archive.org/details/etree

Enjoy,

Weldon

From: blug-bounces@cs.indiana.edu [mailto:blug-bounces@cs.indiana.edu] On Behalf Of Ben Shewmaker
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 11:47
To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group
Subject: [BLUG] How do you listen to music?

Sitting here listening to some music this morning and got to wondering, how do other people listen to music? All on the computer? CD's? LP's? iPods? How does everybody else listen to music? Here's how I do it:

I haven't owned a "real" stereo in years. Actually I think the last stand alone setup I had was a Magnavox 3 CD changer I got for Christmas when I was around 14 and kept until I left for college. I started using my computer as my tv/stereo/home theater setup since 2000 and haven't looked back since (in fact my wife and I no longer have a TV, just main PC and laptops do us just fine). I still have a somewhat largish collection of CDs (mostly classical), but those are all ripped and on my computer. So our main PC is where I have my nice speakers and is the central location for my music listening when I'm at home.

The PC is running Japanese Windows 7 (my wife does translation work from home for a company she works for) and my favorite player across all systems has to be Foobar2000. Even on my laptop, which runs Xubuntu, I often run Foobar through wine when I have it on the home network. I like Foobar b/c it's so flexible and powerful. I mentioned I have a large classical music collection. I started re-ripping all of these recently into lossless Flac (drive space is cheap and plentiful these days, I figure why not have a bit-for-bit copy of the CD? and another reason I'm glad I bought all that music in CD form rather than MP3) and I like to have very detailed meta-data. One of the things I like about Foobar is that I can browse my collection by any tag or custom tag I want. In this screenshot, http://www.shewbox.org/images/foobar.jpg , I'm browsing by composers, which I know other players like Amarok can do, but I can also browse by things like conductor or orchestra or label. If I want to see all the recordings I have with Haitink conducting or the Chicago Symphony I can.

The second place I can find my music collection is online. I am running Ampache, http://ampache.org/, on a password protected subdomain of my hosting account (screenshot: http://www.shewbox.org/images/amp.JPG) . I run a program on the main PC that syncs select bits of my music collection to my server and a nightly cron job updates Ampache's catalogue. Ampache is a really neat open source music web app, although it does have it shortcomings, at least for my classical music collection. It doesn't have the option to browse by anything other than artist or album. A Mahler recording might have Solti and the Chicago Symphony as the artist and Mahler only in the song title or album. So if I want to view everything composed by Mahler, I can't do that with Ampache. That's a minor annoyance though because overall it's great when I want to listen to some of my music away from home. Amarok also has built-in support for an ampache install, which is also really cool. So on my Xubuntu laptop I have Amarok installed and will often use that while I'm on campus since it will automatically connect to my server and stream the music that way.

I never had much of a pop music collection and I've found that right now I really don't have a need for it. There are two free music web apps I use when I want to listen to some random pop song that has popped in my head. grooveshark.com is a bright and shiny web 2.0 music search engine thing of sorts that finds and streams most things I throw at it. I also use skreemr.com sometimes, mainly because it provides direct links to the files it finds if I want to d/l anything. I also find it rather amusing that the RIAA spent the last ten or so years suing everybody and it's easier than ever to listen to just about anything you want for free. Just take a walk down Youtube lane. . . .

And for mobile music I have an (unlocked) iPod touch. It's a great piece of hardware, but with all things Apple I don't like the closed nature of everything. And I hate iTunes. God I hate iTunes. Nothing against anyone who uses it, if you like it great for you. I just can't stand it, as a music player and for the fact that they want to lock the iPod into iTunes and try force you to use it for everything Apple. Yuck. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But the actual iPod itself, that I rather like in spite of itself. Btw, I now want an Android phone, b/c somebody wrote an ampache app for android, so I would be able to listen to my music collection on my phone.

Oh, and as for buying music I still do buy classical CDs from time to time. Honestly, I think buying music online is over priced. Especially if you are getting a lossy mp3 with no album art and in the case of classical music, often poor tags. I think most albums should be $5 tops for an online purchase. There is often very little difference in price in an album download and an actual physical CD. To me anyways, why not pay an extra $3 and get the better package? Isn't one of the reasons why Apple's app store is so popular, because you can purchase apps without a second thought? What if most albums were like $2.99 or something? Then you'd buy just because it'd be a cheap, easy, (and legal!) way to get new music. There is one place I have bought classical music that does it very well, though, and that is Deutsche Grammophon's site. It's still a bit pricey, but on some of their albums you can purchase the album encoded in FLAC, and they include high resolution scans of the booklet and album art. In this case they deliver a much better product for the money. But this could be a topic for an other day.

Oh dear, this ended up being a bit longer than I was thinking. Sorry 'bout that!

Ben

Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Kelly McEvilly wrote:

> Well, I chose CentOS mainly because I maintain a RHEL 5 mail
> server.
>
> I can do the really basic stuff, but that's about it.
>
> I need to learn a lot more about it though. Troubleshooting
> services, disk management, updates, etc.

In case you're not already doing it, you might want to
point your newsreader (I recommend Pan) to news.gmane.org, and
search CentOS. (That should get, among other things,
gmane.linux.centos.general -- a good place to get help.)

You'll probably have to subscribe to the underlying list,
and set your subscription to nomail. It's well worth it, if only
for the sake of convenient skimming.

--
Beartooth Staffwright, Erstwhile Historian of Tongues
Sclerotic Squirreler, Double Retiree, Linux Evangelist
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Re: [BLUG] newbee

Well, I chose CentOS mainly because I maintain a RHEL 5 mail server.

I can do the really basic stuff, but that's about it.

I need to learn a lot more about it though. Troubleshooting services, disk management, updates, etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Krenz" <mark@slugbug.org>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2009 8:57:17 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 01:41:14PM GMT, Kelly McEvilly [kellym@wbhcp.com] said the following:
> OK, since the topic was raised, I'm pretty much a complete noob too.
>
> I'm concentrating on CentOS right now.
>
> Good, bad, indifferent???
>

CentOS is pretty solid as its widely used, based on very mature
technologies (rpm package management), well maintained and is the direct
copy of another very important commercial distribution (Red Hat). So
its a good choice. It tends to be a little behind when it comes to
desktop stuff. Its mostly used for servers and when people want a
desktop distribution based on Red Hat stuff they use Fedora. But using
CentOS for desktops is fine too.

Some common criteria I use when deciding which distribution to use are:

o Well maintained (packages are updated frequently)
o Good package management that has good dependency management (RedHat
used to be a failure in this area)
o Generally free of bugs
o Doesn't have weird restrictions
o Good user community.

Because Linux distros are usually supported by the community, if you
use a distribution that is not widely used, you will have limited places
to go when you have questions. On the other hand, sometimes small
distributions are so eager to get their distro going in the beginning
that the help is excellent. Usually those distros end up being big
eventually.

The weird restrictions one can be more subtle, for instance one thing
I noticed with the XpressLinux distro is that on this page:

http://www.debianadmin.com/xpresslinux-a-new-kubuntu-based-linux-operating-system-for-windows-users.html

In the comments the admin says "xpresslinux is only for desktops"

I kinda doubt this is actually true, but it if was really this way and
there wasn't an easy way to install Apache, why? I mean I understand
its trying to be like Windows, but there is no reason to restrict what
software a user can install like Windows does.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] newbee

I haven't used CentOS, but I read good things about it online. I'm an
Ubuntu user, and I have tried some other distributions (Puppy, DSL,
PCLinuxOS) on live cd, but the experience isn't great because my laptop
(including optical drive speed) is so slow.

I was reading up on other distros and was thinking about changing, but
the great thing about Linux that I finally realized was that if you use
a good, reliable and well supported distribution as your base, you can
customize almost all of them to be exactly what you want. So if you
start with Ubuntu and realize you prefer KDE, it can be installed and
ready to be used in 5 minutes.

I realized I can learn a lot more and have more fun by customizing one
distribution than obsessing over deciding one. So, after all that
rambling I guess what I'm trying to say is just find one that's known to
be stable and well supported and play with it until it is exactly what
you want.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly McEvilly [mailto:kellym@wbhcp.com]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 8:41 AM
To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group
Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee

OK, since the topic was raised, I'm pretty much a complete noob too.

I'm concentrating on CentOS right now.

Good, bad, indifferent???

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron W. Hsu" <arcfide@sacrideo.us>
To: "Bloomington LINUX Users Group" <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 8, 2009 8:46:39 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [BLUG] newbee

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:15:19 -0500, Sidarth Dasari
<Sidster802@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Ive heard Linux Mint is also quite user friendly for new users, and of
> course if there is always Ubuntu or Kubuntu which your distro is based
> off of

Alright, that's it, I have to throw in Slackware here. :) The installer
is
a little intimidating if you don't know how to use an ncurses partition

utility, but other than that, Slackware is great for the starting user
who
wants to learn about Linux. On the other hand, if you don't want to
learn
a different modus operandi from Windows, other systems might work better

for you. :-)

Aaron W. Hsu

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Re: [BLUG] newbee

Some common criteria I use when deciding which distribution to use are:

The weird restrictions one can be more subtle, for instance one thing
I noticed with the XpressLinux distro is that on this page:

http://www.debianadmin.com/xpresslinux-a-new-kubuntu-based-linux-operating-system-for-windows-users.html

In the comments the admin says "xpresslinux is only for desktops"

Re: [BLUG] newbee

OK, since the topic was raised, I'm pretty much a complete noob too.

I'm concentrating on CentOS right now.

Good, bad, indifferent???

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:15:19 -0500, Sidarth Dasari <Sidster802@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Ive heard Linux Mint is also quite user friendly for new users, and of
> course if there is always Ubuntu or Kubuntu which your distro is based
> off of

Alright, that's it, I have to throw in Slackware here. :) The installer is
a little intimidating if you don't know how to use an ncurses partition
utility, but other than that, Slackware is great for the starting user who
wants to learn about Linux. On the other hand, if you don't want to learn
a different modus operandi from Windows, other systems might work better
for you. :-)

Aaron W. Hsu

Monday, November 9, 2009

Blog Archive