Sunday, November 25, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Definitely video (*gasp* yes, even on the 1st gen Nano), maybe just
MPEG(???, don't quote me). Here's an excerpt re:iPods from
<http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRockbox>:

"Rockbox for the iPod models supports a large number of plugins,
including games, applications, and "demos" - have some fun when you've
got some free time to kill, open files with the text viewer, make use
of the stopwatch, view some JPEG photos, perhaps watch a video or two,
or turn your iPod into a desktop clock. Also enjoy On-The-Go playlist
creation and adjustment, full file bookmarking support and much more."

I just played with it a little and figured out there is a way to speed
up playback, but it involves adjusting the pitch which makes Chess
Griffin sound like Alvin Chipmunk, if that's what you're into...

I think there's a way in Audacity to speed things up while
"correcting" for Pitch (basically, chopping out bits of audio, rather
than squeezing it all together) that might be a good way to
pre-process podcasts and audio books before putting them on your
player if what you're aiming for is faster consumption speed without
the extra calories.

To tell the truth, though, if my Nano dies I'll be researching all the
players that are available that support Rockbox at the time, and I
won't necessarily go for an iPod (though they are good hardware, when
reflashed). Right now there are quite a few SanDisk Sansas that would
be high on my list of prospectives.

Simón

P.S. Speaking of dying Nanos. My fiancée's died a while back, which
was a sad day. The other day I found it lying forgotten in my closet
'o junk, so I decided I'd pry it apart to peek inside, maybe see if I
can snag the battery for when mine's battery dies.

Amazingly enough, after prying it open, the sucker turned on good as
new. Craziness. I can't explain how, but I brought it back from the
dead.

Of course, she demanded her case and cable back for it, so I was
penalized for my heroism (I'd gotten used to having the extra cable,
and her case is nicer than mine...).

On Nov 26, 2007 12:25 AM, Gillis, Chad <rcgillis@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> Hey Simón
> (and everyone else)
>
> Having Rockbox on something like an old ipod sounds way nicer than my
> flash drive that plays music. Maybe your experience with the nano
> doesn't apply here, but do you know offhand if Rockbox supports
> variable audio playback speed, or video? If not then don't worry about
> it.
>
> Chad

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Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Hey Simón
(and everyone else)

Having Rockbox on something like an old ipod sounds way nicer than my
flash drive that plays music. Maybe your experience with the nano
doesn't apply here, but do you know offhand if Rockbox supports
variable audio playback speed, or video? If not then don't worry about
it.

Chad

Quoting Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com>:

> Correct. I can just cp/mv my oggs and mp3s (not every podcast provides
> an ogg, yet ;-) ) over to the iPod which mount just like any USB
> drive.
>
> I use bashpodder for my podcatcher, which saves podcasts in neat
> little folders by date.
>
> I just mv all the folders onto my iPod, open up the first folder and
> hit play on the first podcast. Rockbox will just read through all the
> audio files in alphabetical order, and then move on the next
> (alphabetically) folder, so I listen to all my podcasts in rough
> chronological order (+ or - 24 hours).
>
> When I turn off the iPod, it saves a bookmark of where I was, and then
> when I turn it on I just hit the "Play" button and it resumes.
>
> Awesome for podcasts and for audiobooks. I don't listen to much music,
> so I haven't played too much with using the database stuff or
> randomizing anything, but my guess is it's all there somewhere.
>
> And, I can play Frozen Bubble on the iPod while listening to my
> podcasts if I get bored! ;-) Or chess, or Doom, or do Sudoku
> puzzles... Though playing games really kills the battery, I'm guessing
> mostly because of the backlight being on; I don't usually play games,
> anyhow, as I generally only use the iPod while driving or walking the
> dog.
>
> ...The only odd thing is that it takes a little while to play oggs (my
> guess is that has something to do with the iPod having a hardware
> based mp3 decoder, whereas the ogg decoding needs to be done with
> software...).
>
> Simón
>


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Tuesday, November 20, 2007

Re: [BLUG] November meeting announcement

Arrgh, I only noticed that upon reading this message....

Dave Cooley
dcooley@kiva.net

Paul Purdom wrote:
> Darn, I noticed today that the meeting is yesterday.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [BLUG] November meeting announcement

Darn, I noticed today that the meeting is yesterday.
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Re: [BLUG] November meeting announcement

On Monday 19 November 2007 10:59:10 am Scott Blaydes wrote:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
>
> 38th meeting
> November 19th @ 7pm
> Monroe County Library Room 1B
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Please join the Bloomington Linux Users Group for a presentation on
> Inkscape and vector graphics by Ben Lipkowitz. After the presentation
> we will also discuss general Linix and Open Source news if time allows.
>
> Please note the meeting being tonite on a Monday due to scheduling
> conflicts.
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

I was wondering if Ben had any info that he used on the presentation he could
send my way. I have some friends who are interested in this topic and would
love to send it there way.

Cheers
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Monday, November 19, 2007

[BLUG] November meeting announcement

---------------------------------------------------------------
Bloomington Linux Users Group

38th meeting
November 19th @ 7pm
Monroe County Library Room 1B
---------------------------------------------------------------

Please join the Bloomington Linux Users Group for a presentation on
Inkscape and vector graphics by Ben Lipkowitz. After the presentation
we will also discuss general Linix and Open Source news if time allows.

Please note the meeting being tonite on a Monday due to scheduling
conflicts.
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Thursday, November 15, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

Depending on the temperature, it might make for a good Hardy Release Party...

On 11/15/07, Michael Schultheiss <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
> Scott Blaydes wrote:
> > Wonderfully. Thank you.
> >
> > We need to have a meeting someplace where you can bring the dogs.
> > Maybe a cookout next summer (i prefer to not cookout in the snow) at a
> > park? Open source recipes?
>
> CINLUG's been talking about a picnic/cookout for years but we've not yet
> had one. Maybe we could have a joint cookout next year sometime.
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

Dog-friendly picnic would be fun! I'd probably bring "dog" and not
"dogs"; Xen's friendly and social with everyone. Jett's pretty sure
that other dogs are scary, therefore ought to be preemptively bitten.
That's rather an issue at trials. But little Xennie would have a
wonderful time, meeting new people and new dogs and trying her best
"begging face" to get weenies....

Ana

On Nov 15, 2007 12:32 PM, Michael Schultheiss <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
> Scott Blaydes wrote:
> > Wonderfully. Thank you.
> >
> > We need to have a meeting someplace where you can bring the dogs.
> > Maybe a cookout next summer (i prefer to not cookout in the snow) at a
> > park? Open source recipes?
>
> CINLUG's been talking about a picnic/cookout for years but we've not yet
> had one. Maybe we could have a joint cookout next year sometime.
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

Scott Blaydes wrote:
> Wonderfully. Thank you.
>
> We need to have a meeting someplace where you can bring the dogs.
> Maybe a cookout next summer (i prefer to not cookout in the snow) at a
> park? Open source recipes?

CINLUG's been talking about a picnic/cookout for years but we've not yet
had one. Maybe we could have a joint cookout next year sometime.
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

Wonderfully. Thank you.

We need to have a meeting someplace where you can bring the dogs. Maybe
a cookout next summer (i prefer to not cookout in the snow) at a park?
Open source recipes?

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes

Pawsitive Results wrote:
> Monday November 19?
>
> Oddly enough, I think I can actually make it to the meeting, and thus
> bring the projector with me.
>
> That'll work, right?
>
> Ana
>
> On Nov 15, 2007 11:59 AM, Scott Blaydes <sblaydes@sbce.org> wrote:
>> I was going to try to borrow a projector from Ana, but I do not know
>> what her schedule is like on Monday. Hopefully she will see thread and
>> be able to let us know.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Scott Blaydes
>>
>>
>> ben lipkowitz wrote:
>>> I'm going to my parents' house next tuesday; how does monday the 19th
>>> sound? i just reserved the room.
>>>
>>> scott, can you bring a projector?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Steven Black wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 09:39:03PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>>>>> I could go for next week myself, otherwise I had some plans for
>>>>> Thursday. Need to check with Ben also since he was going to present.
>>>> If we're going to do it next week, we need to get the request in
>>>> soon so the room doesn't disappear on us.
>>>>
>>>> I've confirmation we have the room for next month, at least.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Steven Black
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> BLUG mailing list
>>>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>>>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BLUG mailing list
>>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

Monday November 19?

Oddly enough, I think I can actually make it to the meeting, and thus
bring the projector with me.

That'll work, right?

Ana

On Nov 15, 2007 11:59 AM, Scott Blaydes <sblaydes@sbce.org> wrote:
> I was going to try to borrow a projector from Ana, but I do not know
> what her schedule is like on Monday. Hopefully she will see thread and
> be able to let us know.
>
> Thank you,
> Scott Blaydes
>
>
> ben lipkowitz wrote:
> > I'm going to my parents' house next tuesday; how does monday the 19th
> > sound? i just reserved the room.
> >
> > scott, can you bring a projector?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Steven Black wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 09:39:03PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
> >>> I could go for next week myself, otherwise I had some plans for
> >>> Thursday. Need to check with Ben also since he was going to present.
> >>
> >> If we're going to do it next week, we need to get the request in
> >> soon so the room doesn't disappear on us.
> >>
> >> I've confirmation we have the room for next month, at least.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Steven Black
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> BLUG mailing list
> >> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> >> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
> _______________________________________________
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> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

I was going to try to borrow a projector from Ana, but I do not know
what her schedule is like on Monday. Hopefully she will see thread and
be able to let us know.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes

ben lipkowitz wrote:
> I'm going to my parents' house next tuesday; how does monday the 19th
> sound? i just reserved the room.
>
> scott, can you bring a projector?
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Steven Black wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 09:39:03PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>>> I could go for next week myself, otherwise I had some plans for
>>> Thursday. Need to check with Ben also since he was going to present.
>>
>> If we're going to do it next week, we need to get the request in
>> soon so the room doesn't disappear on us.
>>
>> I've confirmation we have the room for next month, at least.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steven Black
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

On Wednesday 14 November 2007 5:38:20 pm Simón Ruiz wrote:
> Correct. I can just cp/mv my oggs and mp3s (not every podcast provides
> an ogg, yet ;-) ) over to the iPod which mount just like any USB
> drive.
>
> I use bashpodder for my podcatcher, which saves podcasts in neat
> little folders by date.
>
> I just mv all the folders onto my iPod, open up the first folder and
> hit play on the first podcast. Rockbox will just read through all the
> audio files in alphabetical order, and then move on the next
> (alphabetically) folder, so I listen to all my podcasts in rough
> chronological order (+ or - 24 hours).
>
> When I turn off the iPod, it saves a bookmark of where I was, and then
> when I turn it on I just hit the "Play" button and it resumes.
>
> Awesome for podcasts and for audiobooks. I don't listen to much music,
> so I haven't played too much with using the database stuff or
> randomizing anything, but my guess is it's all there somewhere.
>
> And, I can play Frozen Bubble on the iPod while listening to my
> podcasts if I get bored! ;-) Or chess, or Doom, or do Sudoku
> puzzles... Though playing games really kills the battery, I'm guessing
> mostly because of the backlight being on; I don't usually play games,
> anyhow, as I generally only use the iPod while driving or walking the
> dog.
>
> ...The only odd thing is that it takes a little while to play oggs (my
> guess is that has something to do with the iPod having a hardware
> based mp3 decoder, whereas the ogg decoding needs to be done with
> software...).
>
> Simón
>
> On 11/13/07, Sams, Weldon <wsams@indiana.edu> wrote:
> > Simón, I have question about Rockbox. Does that allow you to add music
> > flash style to an iPod. I've resorted to using my BlackBerry. :)
> > Although, I kind of like it better for music -- I just wish the battery
> > lasted longer.
> >
> > Weldon
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Has anyone had any luck getting ipodlinux installed on the 5.5gen 30gig ipods?

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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

I'm going to my parents' house next tuesday; how does monday the 19th
sound? i just reserved the room.

scott, can you bring a projector?


On Wed, 14 Nov 2007, Steven Black wrote:
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 09:39:03PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>> I could go for next week myself, otherwise I had some plans for
>> Thursday. Need to check with Ben also since he was going to present.
>
> If we're going to do it next week, we need to get the request in
> soon so the room doesn't disappear on us.
>
> I've confirmation we have the room for next month, at least.
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Correct. I can just cp/mv my oggs and mp3s (not every podcast provides
an ogg, yet ;-) ) over to the iPod which mount just like any USB
drive.

I use bashpodder for my podcatcher, which saves podcasts in neat
little folders by date.

I just mv all the folders onto my iPod, open up the first folder and
hit play on the first podcast. Rockbox will just read through all the
audio files in alphabetical order, and then move on the next
(alphabetically) folder, so I listen to all my podcasts in rough
chronological order (+ or - 24 hours).

When I turn off the iPod, it saves a bookmark of where I was, and then
when I turn it on I just hit the "Play" button and it resumes.

Awesome for podcasts and for audiobooks. I don't listen to much music,
so I haven't played too much with using the database stuff or
randomizing anything, but my guess is it's all there somewhere.

And, I can play Frozen Bubble on the iPod while listening to my
podcasts if I get bored! ;-) Or chess, or Doom, or do Sudoku
puzzles... Though playing games really kills the battery, I'm guessing
mostly because of the backlight being on; I don't usually play games,
anyhow, as I generally only use the iPod while driving or walking the
dog.

...The only odd thing is that it takes a little while to play oggs (my
guess is that has something to do with the iPod having a hardware
based mp3 decoder, whereas the ogg decoding needs to be done with
software...).

Simón

On 11/13/07, Sams, Weldon <wsams@indiana.edu> wrote:
> Simón, I have question about Rockbox. Does that allow you to add music flash style to an iPod. I've resorted to using my BlackBerry. :) Although, I kind of like it better for music -- I just wish the battery lasted longer.
>
> Weldon

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Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

I am at SC07 right now and a company has two on display. They look
pretty cool. I browsed the web with it a little.. I would like to get
one for my daughter.

On Nov 12, 2007 5:53 PM, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello BLUG members,
>
> I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase
> two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you
> get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with
> bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to
> have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications
> could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the
> platform if anything.
>
> Thanks,
> -Nathan
>
> http://www.laptopgiving.org
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble
> challenge with star power. Play Now!

--
Matt Standish
MSN Messenger: mps_@hotmail.com
Yahoo Messenger: mattstandish@yahoo.com
Google Talk: mstandish

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Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict

On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 09:39:03PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
> I could go for next week myself, otherwise I had some plans for
> Thursday. Need to check with Ben also since he was going to present.

If we're going to do it next week, we need to get the request in
soon so the room doesn't disappear on us.

I've confirmation we have the room for next month, at least.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

On Monday 12 November 2007 10:46:59 pm ¥ dosman ¥ wrote:
> That is great to hear, I'm interested in seeing what the finished product
> looks like. And I like the XOnar name too.
>
> -Nathan
>
> > From: simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com
> > To: blug@cs.indiana.edu
> > Subject: Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?
> > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:05:39 -0500
> >
> > Nathan,
> >
> > I'm FROM Bloomington, even though I currently live in Fort Wayne, does
> > that count? ;-)
> >
> > I co-teach a Python class with my boss, and we thought: Wouldn't it be
> > cool to have the kids develop software for the OLPC (since anything
> > that can (reasonably) be in Python on it, is)? Well, since we also
> > happen to be the people who make decisions on how Technology money
> > gets spent, I B2G2'd this morning so we have a couple of development
> > machines on hand.
> >
> > The kids seem pretty pumped about it, and they're working on a
> > Battleship play-alike game for it which they call XOnar (working name,
> > but pretty clever if you ask me).
> >
> > Hope they ship out soon!
> >
> > Simón
> >
> > On Nov 12, 2007 5:53 PM, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hello BLUG members,
> > >
> > > I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you
> > > purchase two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and
> > > the other you get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I
> > > could get away with bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at
> > > this? It would be nice to have a local group of folks with them so the
> > > wi-mesh and group applications could be tested. Also I am interested in
> > > seeing what I can contribute to the platform if anything.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > -Nathan
> > >
> > > http://www.laptopgiving.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble
> > > challenge with star power. Play Now!
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
> http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

I just wanted to drop a line and let everyone know I was at the Fashion Mall
recently up near 82nd and keystone in indianapolis. The interesting thing I
saw was ad's in the mall for the buy one give one deal on the olpc machines.
That's all for now

Cheers

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Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Well, I agree with the basic gist of what you are saying here.. It
seems a little futile to debate which turds would be least smelliest,
because the bottom line is that turds smell :)

I also recognize whole heartedly the overall frustration of having
several companies competing for ownership of your data, particularly
when so many consumers seem blissfully ignorant and complacent about
this stuff. Things have gotten so bad in the tech industry I often
wonder when or if there will be some sort of large scale consumer
revolt. At the top of my list are cell-phone contracts... Doesn't it
seem odd to some that we need to sign a legal document pledging
loyalty to a company we are paying money to for a product that will be
consumed?

Another rant for another thread though (I know my argument isn't at
all focused either), sorry to derail :)

On Nov 13, 2007, at 4:02 PM, Simón Ruiz wrote:

> Oh, I agree with the opinion that there are benefits of having
> commercial software choices (though I think the benefits might be
> better realized if the commercial choices competed on quality, rather
> than existing market dominance) on the grounds that free market
> competition is beneficial to consumers. It's the same reason I think
> forking within the free software community can be healthy.
>
> I simply don't agree that it'd be any better with Apple monopolizing
> an industry over Microsoft; it's merely a choice between expensive,
> working, shiny handcuffs and cheap, good-enough, ugly handcuffs, as
> far as I can tell...
>
> On Nov 13, 2007 3:36 PM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
>> I think there is room for commercial software and proprietaryness.
>> I'm
>> a much bigger fan and advocate of open protocols and formats than I
>> am
>> of all OSS. I don't think that all software should be free, and in
>> fact think that there are often several benefits of having commercial
>> software choices available.
>>
>> Just my two cents...
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> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


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RE: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Simón, I have question about Rockbox. Does that allow you to add music flash style to an iPod. I've resorted to using my BlackBerry. :) Although, I kind of like it better for music -- I just wish the battery lasted longer.

Weldon

-----Original Message-----
From: blug-admin@cs.indiana.edu [mailto:blug-admin@cs.indiana.edu] On Behalf Of Simón Ruiz
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 14:34
To: blug@cs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Not sure about that myself.

"You hack us, we hack you"?

I can't think of any way that Apple is better than Microsoft, other
than the fact that they make better performing, better designed
products. Since this includes their DRM (however much Jobs claims to
abhor it, right?), it ends up no longer being a positive IMO.

The only positive I can think of is that when their products finally
get hacked so we DO have some freedom to use them as we wish (which
pretty much means it's several generations old), we'll have that nicer
hardware to work with.

I, myself, have an iPod Nano (first generation) running Rockbox. I
wouldn't get a newest generation iPod (were money not an issue
anyways), simply because I'd be stuck with Apple's interface, and
locked into their way of doing things, or I'd have to wait until
someone hacked it so it'd would finally work with me.

Just a thought.

Simón

On 11/13/07, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
> This isn't to say that I *want* Apple to dominate this industry, but
> then again... better Apple than Microsoft :)

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BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

On 12/11/2007, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello BLUG members,
>
> I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase
> two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you
> get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with
> bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to
> have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications
> could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the
> platform if anything.
>
I ordered one earlier today -- I'm unconvinced of the OLPC as a tool
to teach programming to kids, but as a collaborative tool it has
promise. And, personally, as an uber-cool legacy-free Linux laptop!

The bundled T-mobile hotspot plan is a nice bonus too.

--
Michel

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Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Oh, I agree with the opinion that there are benefits of having
commercial software choices (though I think the benefits might be
better realized if the commercial choices competed on quality, rather
than existing market dominance) on the grounds that free market
competition is beneficial to consumers. It's the same reason I think
forking within the free software community can be healthy.

I simply don't agree that it'd be any better with Apple monopolizing
an industry over Microsoft; it's merely a choice between expensive,
working, shiny handcuffs and cheap, good-enough, ugly handcuffs, as
far as I can tell...

On Nov 13, 2007 3:36 PM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
> I think there is room for commercial software and proprietaryness. I'm
> a much bigger fan and advocate of open protocols and formats than I am
> of all OSS. I don't think that all software should be free, and in
> fact think that there are often several benefits of having commercial
> software choices available.
>
> Just my two cents...
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Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

I'd say that Apple is a little better overall in that they use many
open Unix protocols rather than reinventing the wheel. While many of
their apps use proprietary formats, many (like their mailbox format in
OS X Mail) are still accessible via Unix tools for troubleshooting and
hacking. That is, they don't go out of their way to make it impossible
to hack their stuff, they just don't bother catering to the hacker
crowd. This is a double-edged sword... On one hand, their products
have great focus and this is a great part of their success. On the
other hand, it's a minus for me personally, often times...

As far as the DRM thing, I don't know exactly what went on there. I
see that Apple is now removing DRM from many of their iTunes tracks
and have phased out iTunes Plus, making non-DRM stuff available at no
additional charge. It seems feasible to me that the labels could have
stipulated that Apple utilize DRM in the infancy of the digital
download store, and that this was the only way their product would be
available, but then when Amazon comes along and make their entire
library available w/o DRM, one has to scratch their head...

I like hacking stuff as much as the next guy, but there are times when
I simply don't want to put in the time or effort to do so and am happy
with the little comfortable bubble Apple has provided me. For
instance, I don't think I'll ever hack into my 3G iPod. On the other
hand, I run MythTV rather than paying for my own PVR, so I guess it's
just a matter of what seems like it is worth my time to me at that
moment.

I think there is room for commercial software and proprietaryness. I'm
a much bigger fan and advocate of open protocols and formats than I am
of all OSS. I don't think that all software should be free, and in
fact think that there are often several benefits of having commercial
software choices available.

Just my two cents...

On Nov 13, 2007, at 2:33 PM, Simón Ruiz wrote:

> Not sure about that myself.
>
> "You hack us, we hack you"?
>
> I can't think of any way that Apple is better than Microsoft, other
> than the fact that they make better performing, better designed
> products. Since this includes their DRM (however much Jobs claims to
> abhor it, right?), it ends up no longer being a positive IMO.
>
> The only positive I can think of is that when their products finally
> get hacked so we DO have some freedom to use them as we wish (which
> pretty much means it's several generations old), we'll have that nicer
> hardware to work with.
>
> I, myself, have an iPod Nano (first generation) running Rockbox. I
> wouldn't get a newest generation iPod (were money not an issue
> anyways), simply because I'd be stuck with Apple's interface, and
> locked into their way of doing things, or I'd have to wait until
> someone hacked it so it'd would finally work with me.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Simón
>
> On 11/13/07, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
>> This isn't to say that I *want* Apple to dominate this industry, but
>> then again... better Apple than Microsoft :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


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BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Not sure about that myself.

"You hack us, we hack you"?

I can't think of any way that Apple is better than Microsoft, other
than the fact that they make better performing, better designed
products. Since this includes their DRM (however much Jobs claims to
abhor it, right?), it ends up no longer being a positive IMO.

The only positive I can think of is that when their products finally
get hacked so we DO have some freedom to use them as we wish (which
pretty much means it's several generations old), we'll have that nicer
hardware to work with.

I, myself, have an iPod Nano (first generation) running Rockbox. I
wouldn't get a newest generation iPod (were money not an issue
anyways), simply because I'd be stuck with Apple's interface, and
locked into their way of doing things, or I'd have to wait until
someone hacked it so it'd would finally work with me.

Just a thought.

Simón

On 11/13/07, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
> This isn't to say that I *want* Apple to dominate this industry, but
> then again... better Apple than Microsoft :)

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Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Apple also claims that they will have a full iPhone SDK in place for
developers by Feb. 2008. I'm interested in knowing whether this will
be complete and entirely open and transparent to developers, or
whether it will be Apple's version of "open", which sometimes seems to
carry a different definition. I'm also interested in seeing whether
Apple will license the iPhone OS (which is a stripped down version of
OS X) to other vendors, and what these relationships and caveats will
be like.

No matter what you think of Apple (and believe me, I have a love/hate
relationship with them myself), the iPhone is damn cool. If Apple
plays their cards right, they could really dominate the smartphone
industry like they dominate the mp3 player industry. Apple sometimes
does some weird things on their backends, sometimes stuff that doesn't
perform well, is oddly designed, etc., but they *do* know how to make
a good client interface, which is going to be what makes or breaks the
purchasing decisions for Joe Sixpack.

This isn't to say that I *want* Apple to dominate this industry, but
then again... better Apple than Microsoft :)

On Nov 13, 2007, at 11:07 AM, Steven Black wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:10:16PM -0800, Mark Kruzan wrote:
>> From the website: "The Android platform is a software stack for
>> mobile devices
>> including an operating system, middleware and key applications.
>> Developers can
>> create applications for the platform using the Android SDK.
>> Applications are
>> written using the Java programming language and run on Dalvik, a
>> custom virtual
>> machine designed for embedded use which runs on top of a Linux
>> kernel."
>
> Personally, my gut turns when I think of Java. I don't know if I could
> live with myself using a Java-based phone. Not to mention they
> appear to
> have turned Java in to a write-here-run-here language. Custom
> libraries
> on top of a custom VM?
>
> I suppose they expect you to need to rewrite your entire user-
> interface
> if you want to re-use any libraries between a phone and light-weight
> desktop application. This really sounds like a giant leap backwards,
> powered by Google, so it may catch on.
>
> I'm much more interested in OpenMoko. Their entire design is
> centered on
> standard libraries so the only requirements that applications have is
> that they are limited by the screen size. If you have a small light-
> weight
> desktop application, then it may just compile cleanly for OpenMoko.
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 08:10:16PM -0800, Mark Kruzan wrote:
> From the website: "The Android platform is a software stack for mobile devices
> including an operating system, middleware and key applications. Developers can
> create applications for the platform using the Android SDK. Applications are
> written using the Java programming language and run on Dalvik, a custom virtual
> machine designed for embedded use which runs on top of a Linux kernel."

Personally, my gut turns when I think of Java. I don't know if I could
live with myself using a Java-based phone. Not to mention they appear to
have turned Java in to a write-here-run-here language. Custom libraries
on top of a custom VM?

I suppose they expect you to need to rewrite your entire user-interface
if you want to re-use any libraries between a phone and light-weight
desktop application. This really sounds like a giant leap backwards,
powered by Google, so it may catch on.

I'm much more interested in OpenMoko. Their entire design is centered on
standard libraries so the only requirements that applications have is
that they are limited by the screen size. If you have a small light-weight
desktop application, then it may just compile cleanly for OpenMoko.

Cheers,
Steven Black

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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Monday, November 12, 2007

[BLUG] Android - competition for iPhone?

Hi, I'm Mark Kruzan. Thanks for re-electing me recently.

The Android SDK was released just today. 
http://code.google.com/android/index.html
http://code.google.com/p/android/downloads/list

Demo video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FJHYqE0RDg&eurl=http://code.google.com/android/index.html

From the website: "The Android platform is a software stack for mobile devices including an operating system, middleware and key applications. Developers can create applications for the platform using the Android SDK. Applications are written using the Java programming language and run on Dalvik, a custom virtual machine designed for embedded use which runs on top of a Linux kernel."

It's Open Source, of course :)
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071106-why-google-chose-the-apache-software-license-over-gplv2.html


Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

RE: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

That is great to hear, I'm interested in seeing what the finished product looks like. And I like the XOnar name too.

-Nathan


> From: simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com
> To: blug@cs.indiana.edu
> Subject: Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?
> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:05:39 -0500
>
> Nathan,
>
> I'm FROM Bloomington, even though I currently live in Fort Wayne, does
> that count? ;-)
>
> I co-teach a Python class with my boss, and we thought: Wouldn't it be
> cool to have the kids develop software for the OLPC (since anything
> that can (reasonably) be in Python on it, is)? Well, since we also
> happen to be the people who make decisions on how Technology money
> gets spent, I B2G2'd this morning so we have a couple of development
> machines on hand.
>
> The kids seem pretty pumped about it, and they're working on a
> Battleship play-alike game for it which they call XOnar (working name,
> but pretty clever if you ask me).
>
> Hope they ship out soon!
>
> Simón
>
> On Nov 12, 2007 5:53 PM, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello BLUG members,
> >
> > I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase
> > two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you
> > get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with
> > bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to
> > have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications
> > could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the
> > platform if anything.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Nathan
> >
> > http://www.laptopgiving.org
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble
> > challenge with star power. Play Now!
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! Get 'em!

Re: [BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict tomorrow

I could go for next week myself, otherwise I had some plans for
Thursday. Need to check with Ben also since he was going to present.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes

Steven Black wrote:
> At this point we could move it to Thursday, provided we're content
> with the Indiana Room.
>
> 1C is available the following week (Nov 20).
>
> I did get 1B requested for December (12/11).
>
> When can people make it?
>
> We could do a social/restaurant meeting instead tomorrow?
>
> I'm terrible about this.
>
> -- Steven
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

Hah! I've seen too many sitcoms where two kids pitch in to buy
something coveted and agree to share... ;-)

On Nov 12, 2007 6:20 PM, David Ernst <david.ernst@davidernst.net> wrote:
> Wow, looks cool! I don't think I really have much purpose for such a
> device, but I am interested, I'd love to see one (and maybe then I
> could even justify buying one...)
>
> I'd probably be willing to pitch in some money towards a shared one,
> we could buy it as a group, and use it for BLUG presentations! :)
> Probably not a great idea, but... I would love to see one...
>
> David
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Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

Agreed, no use for one myself, but I'd pitch in to purchase on behalf of the group.


--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College of Indiana
812.330.6156 (w)  812.330.6212 (f)



----- Original Message -----
From: blug-admin@cs.indiana.edu <blug-admin@cs.indiana.edu>
To: blug@cs.indiana.edu <blug@cs.indiana.edu>
Sent: Mon Nov 12 18:20:30 2007
Subject: Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

Wow, looks cool!  I don't think I really have much purpose for such a
device, but I am interested, I'd love to see one (and maybe then I
could even justify buying one...)

I'd probably be willing to pitch in some money towards a shared one,
we could buy it as a group, and use it for BLUG presentations!  :)
Probably not a great idea, but...  I would love to see one... 

David


On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 06:05:39PM -0500, Simón Ruiz wrote:
>Nathan,
>
>I'm FROM Bloomington, even though I currently live in Fort Wayne, does
>that count? ;-)
>
>I co-teach a Python class with my boss, and we thought: Wouldn't it be
>cool to have the kids develop software for the OLPC (since anything
>that can (reasonably) be in Python on it, is)? Well, since we also
>happen to be the people who make decisions on how Technology money
>gets spent, I B2G2'd this morning so we have a couple of development
>machines on hand.
>
>The kids seem pretty pumped about it, and they're working on a
>Battleship play-alike game for it which they call XOnar (working name,
>but pretty clever if you ask me).
>
>Hope they ship out soon!
>
>Simón
>
>On Nov 12, 2007 5:53 PM, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Hello BLUG members,
>>
>> I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase
>> two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you
>> get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with
>> bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to
>> have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications
>> could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the
>> platform if anything.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Nathan
>>
>> http://www.laptopgiving.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble
>> challenge with star power. Play Now!
>
>_______________________________________________
>BLUG mailing list
>BLUG@linuxfan.com
>http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

Wow, looks cool! I don't think I really have much purpose for such a
device, but I am interested, I'd love to see one (and maybe then I
could even justify buying one...)

I'd probably be willing to pitch in some money towards a shared one,
we could buy it as a group, and use it for BLUG presentations! :)
Probably not a great idea, but... I would love to see one...

David


On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 06:05:39PM -0500, Simón Ruiz wrote:
>Nathan,
>
>I'm FROM Bloomington, even though I currently live in Fort Wayne, does
>that count? ;-)
>
>I co-teach a Python class with my boss, and we thought: Wouldn't it be
>cool to have the kids develop software for the OLPC (since anything
>that can (reasonably) be in Python on it, is)? Well, since we also
>happen to be the people who make decisions on how Technology money
>gets spent, I B2G2'd this morning so we have a couple of development
>machines on hand.
>
>The kids seem pretty pumped about it, and they're working on a
>Battleship play-alike game for it which they call XOnar (working name,
>but pretty clever if you ask me).
>
>Hope they ship out soon!
>
>Simón
>
>On Nov 12, 2007 5:53 PM, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello BLUG members,
>>
>> I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase
>> two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you
>> get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with
>> bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to
>> have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications
>> could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the
>> platform if anything.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Nathan
>>
>> http://www.laptopgiving.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble
>> challenge with star power. Play Now!
>
>_______________________________________________
>BLUG mailing list
>BLUG@linuxfan.com
>http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

Nathan,

I'm FROM Bloomington, even though I currently live in Fort Wayne, does
that count? ;-)

I co-teach a Python class with my boss, and we thought: Wouldn't it be
cool to have the kids develop software for the OLPC (since anything
that can (reasonably) be in Python on it, is)? Well, since we also
happen to be the people who make decisions on how Technology money
gets spent, I B2G2'd this morning so we have a couple of development
machines on hand.

The kids seem pretty pumped about it, and they're working on a
Battleship play-alike game for it which they call XOnar (working name,
but pretty clever if you ask me).

Hope they ship out soon!

Simón

On Nov 12, 2007 5:53 PM, ¥ dosman ¥ <dosman33@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello BLUG members,
>
> I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase
> two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you
> get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with
> bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to
> have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications
> could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the
> platform if anything.
>
> Thanks,
> -Nathan
>
> http://www.laptopgiving.org
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble
> challenge with star power. Play Now!

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

[BLUG] OLPC - anyone from Bloomington participating?

Hello BLUG members,

I am strongly considering the "Give One Get One" program where you purchase two XO's; one is given to a child in a developing nation and the other you get to keep. Since it is based on Fedora 7 I figured I could get away with bringing this up here, is anyone else looking at this? It would be nice to have a local group of folks with them so the wi-mesh and group applications could be tested. Also I am interested in seeing what I can contribute to the platform if anything.

Thanks,
-Nathan

http://www.laptopgiving.org




Climb to the top of the charts!  Play Star Shuffle:  the word scramble challenge with star power. Play Now!

[BLUG] Meeting delayed: Room conflict tomorrow

At this point we could move it to Thursday, provided we're content
with the Indiana Room.

1C is available the following week (Nov 20).

I did get 1B requested for December (12/11).

When can people make it?

We could do a social/restaurant meeting instead tomorrow?

I'm terrible about this.

-- Steven

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BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop growth.

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 11:17:59AM -0500, Kinzer, Victor J wrote:
> Finally I'd like to point people to the World average fertility number in
> the link from above. It was 2.8 in 200 and is now 2.59. Most of the
> world has lower life expectancy than we enjoy, and the number is going
> down. I think those specific statistics speak for themselves.

For some reason I'm thinking of the isolated group of immortal people
surrounded by relatively short-lived barbarians a la Zardoz (*).

(*) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Saturday, November 10, 2007

Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop. growth (was NOV meeting topic)

On Nov 9, 2007 10:47 AM, August R. Wohlt <blug@isidore.net> wrote:
>
> Perhaps you meant homeostasis instead of equilibrium?

Precisely the idea I was going for.

> The vhem movement suffers from this because unless you're already onboard
> with its ideas, no amount of rational explanation is going to change the
> physical, evolutionary, and spiritual feeling that it's main focus is
> anti-being-alive rather than pro-planet.

I agree. I certainly find it hard to take their message seriously when
they've decided to distill it into that name.

> The very idea that it's doing so to support its own agenda
> and profit is what is going to carry it forward. It's basically an
> environmental trojan in the capitalOS.

Well, that's the only way I can think of to make a significant change,
is if it's economically a no-brainer. Green technology won't be pushed
by corporate America until it's in their best economic interests.

Without corporate support, the only way you'd get anything done is
through legislation, which requires popular support (which is heavily
swayed by corporate interests...).

> Inevitably, it will be abused and the
> green meme will be trashed, just like Wal*mart will trash the Organic meme,
> but in its place I have no doubt in the fountainhead of creativity that
> human beings corral is already coming up with something far better, and that
> its temporary reign will have left a beneficial mark on the planet's
> history.

Yeah, I'd like to think we're smart and creative enough to save
ourselves and our home from ourselves. :-)

Simón

P.S. Interestingly enough, I happened to listen yesterday to a "Word
for Word" <wordforword.publicradio.org> where the speaker mentioned
the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement near the end of a discussion
about what would happen to the planet if humans were suddenly out of
the picture. It was a fascinating listen, which might interest those
of you who consume podcasts.

<http://wordforword.publicradio.org/programs/2007/10/12/>

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Friday, November 9, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Xen's September Benchmarks

A fun benchmark for me is that I now have more Xen virtual machines
running on Suso than you have dogs. 18. ;-)

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 06:05:20PM GMT, Pawsitive Results [pawsitiveresults@gmail.com] said the following:
> The United Kennel Club has updated their online New Titles page at
> http://ukcdogs.com/DENewt.htm
>
> Select Agility, then in the right hand column, under United Agility I,
> scroll down to Border Collies, and there she is, Norwood's Linux
> Hypervisor.
>
> Her next test will be November 17-18, for her first Canine Performance
> Events benchmarks.
>
> Ana, Jett & Xen
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Xen's September Benchmarks

Congratulations!

-- Steven Black

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 01:05:20PM -0500, Pawsitive Results wrote:
> The United Kennel Club has updated their online New Titles page at
> http://ukcdogs.com/DENewt.htm
>
> Select Agility, then in the right hand column, under United Agility I,
> scroll down to Border Collies, and there she is, Norwood's Linux
> Hypervisor.
>
> Her next test will be November 17-18, for her first Canine Performance
> Events benchmarks.
>
> Ana, Jett & Xen
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
_______________________________________________
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[BLUG] Xen's September Benchmarks

The United Kennel Club has updated their online New Titles page at
http://ukcdogs.com/DENewt.htm

Select Agility, then in the right hand column, under United Agility I,
scroll down to Border Collies, and there she is, Norwood's Linux
Hypervisor.

Her next test will be November 17-18, for her first Canine Performance
Events benchmarks.

Ana, Jett & Xen
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[BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop growth.

The vast majority of the numbers listed in this discussion so far are WAY off from the actual rates of population growth in the world. 5 children is almost completely unheard of in America anymore. There are a few exceptions, but by and large 0-3 is the standard. Take a quick look at the Total Fertility Rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate

These numbers are based on the average number of children that each female has. So approximately 2 is exactly replacement fertility. Ignoring imbalance between male and female population, and ignoring general death rates. Note how much of this list is below 2. A HUGE amount. And many of the countries who are above 2 have death rates based on lack of modern health services that account for those numbers. In fact if you look at the rates of fertility historically there is a direct correlation between higher life expectancy and lower fertility rates. We are in fact self regulating, and in some places like Japan over self regulating.

Population is indeed an issue, but not the world devastating issue that people are making it out to be.

Also that I have 80 great grand children. One that number assume NO DEATH pre fertility AT ALL. That is an idealized number beyond imagination. So bring that down a touch, then remember that that great grandchild of yours has 2 parents, and 4 grandparents, and 8 great grandparents. So work in death, account for average fertility rates in the country you're talking about, and I think you will find the overall generational populations aren't increasing. I have 6 biological cousins and 1 sister, but 5 sets of aunts and uncles. That is well below the replacement fertility for my parents generation. If you look at my parents generation which was the generation after life expectancy had actually gone up, but before people had lived long enough for people to notice and stop having so many kids you realize they resulted in a jump in population, but even if my family is on the low side of American fertility by the full margin of error for such things we still aren't looking at!
any sort of long term problem.

Where the problem lies is in countries where the life expectancy went up, but cultural requirements to have kids were so high that fertility did not adjust. China and India are perfect examples. China took care of their problem through totalitarian means, and no one in the free world has been particular approving. I sadly know less about the way things are developing in India other than fertility rates are way out of line with their life expectancy. Those are however, isolated countries. World population trends are very different.

Finally I'd like to point people to the World average fertility number in the link from above. It was 2.8 in 200 and is now 2.59. Most of the world has lower life expectancy than we enjoy, and the number is going down. I think those specific statistics speak for themselves.

PS: For anyone who doesn't trust Wikipedia, click on the source link at the top, check the URL and browse through that PDF for verification.

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Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop. growth (was NOV meeting topic)


On Nov 8, 2007 8:42 PM, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 8, 2007 12:24 PM, Steven Black < blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> Actually, an equilibrium need never be reached. The typical model for
> uncontrolled breeding involves a massive die-off, followed by a return
> to uncontrolled breeding. It is a cycle with no natural equilibrium,
> particularly when age and disease are the primary killers.

I suppose equilibrium wasn't the word I was looking for. I don't mean
so much a stable, balanced state so much as a dynamic, constant
balancing.

Perhaps you meant homeostasis instead of equilibrium?

I invite the folks in this thread to take a look at the latest issue of wie http://www.wie.org/j38/?ifr=hp-art, also available at bloomingfoods and other fine stores in the area. There is an article in there about a new face of environmentalism and sustainability that is worth a read.

Of particular note in the article is integral-laden notion that people don't respond very well moralistic scolding, so it's not a very good way to activate change, even if that change is relatively or absolutely "Better" for those involved.

For example, if you tell someone that overpopulation is doing the planet in and the solution is to remove human beings from the equation, even if that thought is "right" on any level, it wont make it very far into most peoples' heads. It'll get just past the ear before it runs into the self-preservation defense system. Unless that system has been entangled in rational thought long enough to be disabled, the notion falls right back out of the ear as soon as it gets in and notional antibodies will spring up in its place to prevent further such "attacks".

The vhem  movement suffers from this because unless you're already onboard with its ideas, no amount of rational explanation is going to change the physical, evolutionary, and spiritual feeling that it's main focus is anti-being-alive rather than pro-planet.

For instance, my defenses ring with this kind of response: "well any source that is spouting that kind of nonesense obviously doesn't have children, obviously doesn't understand the compassionate role of the human being to do good in the world, obviously has no faith in the creativity and adaptability of mankind, obviously doesn't have faith in any higher power or self, and oddly seems to think that wiping out a tiny, insignificant planet really is a big deal in the huge scheme of the universe. I mean aren't we just a few specs on a big rock? Who cares if the rock warms up a few degrees? Enjoy it while you can and let your kids decide if they want to, too. At least give them the choice." Obviously those are just defensive reactions and any rational being can (d|r)eflect them with formal argument about why they are baseless, delusional, or just plain wrong. That's what rational beings do. But reason alone can't undo decades of habit and generations of culture. To do that requires something more fundamental. It requires something that can surround me, seep into my daily life and be assimilated by my underconscious mind to carry me in the right direction despite my reactionary head.

The article talks about an alternative "brighter green" that is definitely not being sold as something non-hippy, non-activist, and non-green, but instead is centered around the notion of actually using technology and human creativity to dive right into changing the planet in a positive, sustainable way rather than trying to butt heads with how wrong everything everyone else is doing or trying to avoid doing certain things. Positive reinforcement works much better than negative reinforcement, aparently, and making positive changes apparently does more good than using up those resources to disable negative changes.

The article suggests doing this more fundamental kind of changing through the channels that are deemed important to the industrialized countries: style, culture, and media. In short, if green is cool, and people want to be cool, people will act green and the planet will benefit (at least in the short term). If green is fashionable and people respond to fashion (as apparently many do), then people will be brightened towards green. I think that we'll be seeing a whole lot of this now that the media has latched onto the "green" meme. The very idea that it's doing so to support its own agenda and profit is what is going to carry it forward. It's basically an environmental trojan in the capitalOS. Inevitably, it will be abused and the green meme will be trashed, just like Wal*mart will trash the Organic meme, but in its place I have no doubt in the fountainhead of creativity that human beings corral is already coming up with something far better, and that its temporary reign will have left a beneficial mark on the planet's history.

anyhoo, it's an interesting read :)

:g



Thursday, November 8, 2007

Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop. growth (was NOV meeting topic)

On Nov 8, 2007 12:24 PM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> Actually, an equilibrium need never be reached. The typical model for
> uncontrolled breeding involves a massive die-off, followed by a return
> to uncontrolled breeding. It is a cycle with no natural equilibrium,
> particularly when age and disease are the primary killers.

I suppose equilibrium wasn't the word I was looking for. I don't mean
so much a stable, balanced state so much as a dynamic, constant
balancing.

The reason the planet is becoming overpopulated is because it has the
capacity (at least in the short term) to sustain that extra
population. When either too many people are made, or the planet's
capacity to sustain the people that we already have changes, either
people will die or more people will be made.

I'm guessing this has something to do with this massive die-off you're
predicting?


> > Those elders didn't have 2-3 children, I'd wager; they had 8-12.
>
> If I have 5 children (like my father did, and my wife's parents did)
> and each of those 5 children have 5 children then I have 25
> grandchildren. If those 25 grandchildren have 5 children a piece,
> I have 125 great-grandchildren.

*sNiP math*

> However, the numbers look much worse when you plan for the future,
> by which I mean 7 generations or about 140 years. Heck, plan for one
> near-future life expectancy of 100 years and 5 generations and the
> numbers are bad enough.

Both of my parents are the eldest of eight.

However...

My mother had 3 children, my father had four. I have four siblings,
and I'm the youngest at 24 (my oldest brother is 45). Of the five of
us, I have a niece and a nephew.

So, yes, if you and all of your siblings had five kids apiece, and
they had five kids apiece, etc...but I wonder how many nieces and
nephews you have.

> > You might like Orson Scott Card's Ender saga. The solution to
> > over-population in that is to hurl great big chunks of our population
> > out to the stars (of course, we happen to know where to send them,
> > which helps).
>
> Resource scarcity becomes a greater concern the greater the population
> becomes. With insufficient resources there is little anyone will be
> able to do to get off the planet.

Well, those people landed on other planets and started taking
advantage of those resources.

> > My fiancée and I are likely to adopt children; she herself was adopted.
>
> My wife and I are thinking that we may eventually adopt, too.
> There are plenty of children out there that need loving, caring
> families.

The numbers are insane, and the process of adopting a difficult tangle
of red tape. There are actually a huge number of willing families not
allowed to adopt for such genius reasons as "Sorry, you're gay".

> My wife is less dead set against breeding than I am. However we
> both have family histories with unfortunate diseases and disorders.

Also a valid reason to go childless.

> I believe humans should be extinct on Earth. The Earth was a nice
> place to get started, but once we have the technology to live
> sustainably off-planet it is our duty to the biosphere to leave it.

Ack, I can't agree. We're as natural a part of this planet as any
other living being. We simply need to be more responsible stewards.

> That would be a nice goal. I fear that while there remain radical
> religious groups promoting uncontrolled breeding (and not kept at
> bay with legislation) the world will continue to have
> over-population issues.

Legislation? I suppose it may come to that (in that Orson Scott Card
series I mentioned, it does), but before we propose legal restrictions
on personal liberty why don't we see what happens when we, say,
improve the economic situation and the literacy rates of poorer areas
of the world (including poorer areas of our own cities).

> > When there are no more empty spaces, we'll have killed the planet's
> > ability to sustain us. It's as simple as that, as I see it. If we
> > manage to deforest and pave the world, we're done for.
>
> Heh. A place isn't empty if it can't be accidentally destroyed in
> an experiment gone wrong. Such a place may be an oxygen farm or
> what-have-you. However when I talk about empty spaces, I'm talking
> about places that *can* be destroyed when a ship falls out of the
> sky during a test process. (Or better, places empty of even anything
> that can be destroyed.)

I dunno, I think we'll figure getting off-planet out in the
not-too-distant future, and any "learning experiences" with
inter-planetary or inter-stellar travel probably won't land on Earth.

> > However, I think we'd have to pretty much want "voluntary human
> > extinction" to hit that extreme, because it's not like we wouldn't
> > notice the massive consequences of such action happening as we moved
> > toward it.
>
> The key word is "voluntary". If it is a die-off it is involuntary.

Well, if you know the consequences of something like destroying the
rainforests, or pulling the trigger of that gun pressed against your
forehead, and you do it anyway, that's voluntary. That's all I mean.

> Voluntary means having a few children you can take care of well.

Voluntary extinction == suicide. Or is there some sort of linguistic
subtlety I'm missing? What you're describing is more like voluntary
population control.

> Involuntary means having so many children that they all go hungry and
> none of them have clothes that fit. Then they all die when you don't
> have the money to take any of them to a doctor.

Interestingly enough, in that situation people tend to have MORE
children, so they'll have better chances of one of them making it to
adulthood.

> Cheers, (morbid it may be, but we're all friends :)
> Steven

Well, then, cheers!
Simón

> > P.S. I think the only Linux-related thing about all this is that I'm
> > typing it up on Ubuntu...
>
> I believe open source software should be used in the process to get us
> colonizing other planets. Linux is well suited for such a task. :)

Well, that, and Linux is the most efficient user of available resources...

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Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop. growth (was NOV meeting topic)

On Thu, 8 Nov 2007, Steven Black wrote:

> Resource scarcity becomes a greater concern the greater the population
> becomes. With insufficient resources there is little anyone will be
> able to do to get off the planet.
> ...
> My theory, though, is that we need to treat the planet as basically
> a zero-sum game. It is about maximizing resource utilization and not
> about having more -- as you can't have more, there's a fixed amount.

Gosh Steven where did you get this idea that "there will never be enough"?
People in all but the poorest countries have had a greater standard of
living than ever before, due to the advances in science and technology in
only the last century. Given the current pitiful rate of investment in
"livingry" it's hard to predict what the human race might be capable of if
we actually put our minds to it. Do the advantages of having an extra
seven billion people around outweigh the disadvantages? Nobody seriously
gives this line of thought any consideration. Why?

* http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html
It's important to note that none of the projections on this page rely on
any new technology. Amusing nonetheless.

It's relevant because John McCarthy discovered Lisp which resulted in
Emacs and thus GNU.

-fenn
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Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop. growth (was NOV meeting topic)

On Wed, Nov 07, 2007 at 09:32:45PM -0500, Simón Ruiz wrote:
> That's true, and more contrary to our nature and history than just
> about anything else I can think of. Still, an equilibrium will be
> reached, whether it's pretty or not—as we overload the planet's
> ability to sustain us, people will die.

Actually, an equilibrium need never be reached. The typical model for
uncontrolled breeding involves a massive die-off, followed by a return
to uncontrolled breeding. It is a cycle with no natural equilibrium,
particularly when age and disease are the primary killers.

For an example of what could be ahead of us as a species, you may want
to read the Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle book _The Mote in God's Eye_.
The alien race in that book has an issue with over-breeding, and it
explores the consequences of that behavior if it is allowed to run
rampant.

> > The way I see it, there's a massive die-off coming. I can either
> > be kind to my children and not give rise to them, or I can try to
> > be one of the few to survive.
>
> Hmmm, I buy the "I'm doing my part not to over-populate the planet"
> argument more.

All you need is for your nice little only child to catch some religion
which disallows him/her from controlling the number of children they
have at which point it you become responsible for producing 80+
great-grandchildren instead of 80+ grandchildren. Having any children
is bad for the planet.

> > I don't expect the die off to happen soon. As such, I expect if
> > I had 2-3 children, those could result in 80+ adults before the
> > die-off. That's 80+ additional lives that will be spared by my
> > not having children. (I know of families with the elders having
> > more than 80+ grandchildren and great-grandchildren.)
>
> Those elders didn't have 2-3 children, I'd wager; they had 8-12.

If I have 5 children (like my father did, and my wife's parents did)
and each of those 5 children have 5 children then I have 25
grandchildren. If those 25 grandchildren have 5 children a piece,
I have 125 great-grandchildren.

Now, if I have my 5 children before I'm 30, my children have their 5
children before their 30, and their children have their 5 children
before their 30 and the life expectancy is 90+ years, then I get a
few years before I die to see all my 125 great grandchildren.

Those aren't numbers I pulled from my hat. Those are me having the
same size family that both I and my wife had.

When I said grand-children and great-grandchildren I meant the sum
of the two, so in the last example that total would be 150. So, when
I say 80+ grandchildren and great-grandchildren I was speaking about
an average family size of less than 5. Less than that of both my own
family and my wife's family.

Now, I don't expect to be alive for the die-off, which means that my
great-grandchildren may have had children before that time.

3 children -> 9 grandchildren -> 27 great grandchildren
-> 81 great-great grandchildren
9 + 27 + 81 = 117 decendants of my children to die off

2.5 children -> 5 grandchildren -> 12.5 -> 31.2
5 + 12 + 31 = 48 decendants of my children to die off

So with an average family size of 3 children there would be 80+
great-great grandchildren. One generation removed from my original
out-of-ass number.

However, the numbers look much worse when you plan for the future,
by which I mean 7 generations or about 140 years. Heck, plan for one
near-future life expectancy of 100 years and 5 generations and the
numbers are bad enough.

> You might like Orson Scott Card's Ender saga. The solution to
> over-population in that is to hurl great big chunks of our population
> out to the stars (of course, we happen to know where to send them,
> which helps).

Resource scarcity becomes a greater concern the greater the population
becomes. With insufficient resources there is little anyone will be
able to do to get off the planet.

> My fiancée and I are likely to adopt children; she herself was adopted.

My wife and I are thinking that we may eventually adopt, too.
There are plenty of children out there that need loving, caring
families.

My wife is less dead set against breeding than I am. However we
both have family histories with unfortunate diseases and disorders.

> "Voluntary human extinction" shouldn't catch on, but there's plenty of
> people who are choosing to be childless. Zero or sub-zero population
> growth is a much more reasonable goal (though not terribly likely
> anytime soon).

I believe humans should be extinct on Earth. The Earth was a nice
place to get started, but once we have the technology to live
sustainably off-planet it is our duty to the biosphere to leave it.

> The increase in population lately has largely been a matter of
> increased lifespan; in fact, birth rates have been declining for a
> while. I think it's possible, if we figure out good ways of better
> distributing wealth and education (two factors that are strongly
> inversely related to birth rates), that we can reach an equilibrium of
> human population within the next century.

That would be a nice goal. I fear that while there remain radical
religious groups promoting uncontrolled breeding (and not kept at
bay with legislation) the world will continue to have
over-population issues.

This is why it is in predominantly Protestant countries where laws
have been put in place to encourage people to have children. Left
to their own senses most people realize that children are a ton of
work and their life would be better off with few, if any.

I think that countries wouldn't feel the need to institute such laws
if it weren't for fear of the local culture changing. Once the
immigrant community is larger than the local population the local
population frequently takes notice. This is another reason that
Nationalism totally sucks. If people considered themselves citizens
of the planet instead of tied with some national identity it would
be easier to accept shifting cultures.

The big problem with over-population is that once it really becomes a
pressing issue so many of the options are no longer available. Instead
of allowing any family to have one child there will be a stronger push
to require sterilization of certain parts of our population. That just
starts big trouble all over.

(Though that's not to say that over-population law shouldn't include
forced sterilization for people who violate the law. It should be a
given that it is the only solution for repeat offenders.)

> Of course, our entire economics is based on the idea of perpetual
> expansion. I wonder what sorts of economic trials we'd be faced if we
> actually got to a balance point with the world population, or even a
> population recession.

It reminds me of why I believe there may never be a world government:
Large countries like to be able to bully smaller countries in to
submitting to what they would never let their own people submit to.

I don't know enough about economics to have really clear ideas on it.

My theory, though, is that we need to treat the planet as basically
a zero-sum game. It is about maximizing resource utilization and not
about having more -- as you can't have more, there's a fixed amount.

> When there are no more empty spaces, we'll have killed the planet's
> ability to sustain us. It's as simple as that, as I see it. If we
> manage to deforest and pave the world, we're done for.

Heh. A place isn't empty if it can't be accidentally destroyed in
an experiment gone wrong. Such a place may be an oxygen farm or
what-have-you. However when I talk about empty spaces, I'm talking
about places that *can* be destroyed when a ship falls out of the
sky during a test process. (Or better, places empty of even anything
that can be destroyed.)

> However, I think we'd have to pretty much want "voluntary human
> extinction" to hit that extreme, because it's not like we wouldn't
> notice the massive consequences of such action happening as we moved
> toward it.

The key word is "voluntary". If it is a die-off it is involuntary.

Voluntary means having a few children you can take care of well.

Involuntary means having so many children that they all go hungry and
none of them have clothes that fit. Then they all die when you don't
have the money to take any of them to a doctor.

> This planet will survive, no matter what we do. The question is whether we will.

Sure the planet will survive. There's life living in harsh conditions
not dependant upon the sun or rain, that will survive regardless of
whether we destroy the rest of the biosphere.

> Cheers? This is a pretty morbid discussion. ;-)
> Simón

Cheers, (morbid it may be, but we're all friends :)
Steven

> P.S. I think the only Linux-related thing about all this is that I'm
> typing it up on Ubuntu...

I believe open source software should be used in the process to get us
colonizing other planets. Linux is well suited for such a task. :)


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Wednesday, November 7, 2007

Re: [BLUG] environmentalism and limiting pop. growth (was NOV meeting topic)

On Nov 6, 2007 2:23 PM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> One way or another, it would be nice to think that human population
> could reach an equilibrium. With extended life expectancies, this
> means a good chunk of the population will need to not have children.

That's true, and more contrary to our nature and history than just
about anything else I can think of. Still, an equilibrium will be
reached, whether it's pretty or not—as we overload the planet's
ability to sustain us, people will die.

> The way I see it, there's a massive die-off coming. I can either
> be kind to my children and not give rise to them, or I can try to
> be one of the few to survive.

Hmmm, I buy the "I'm doing my part not to over-populate the planet"
argument more.

> I don't expect the die off to happen soon. As such, I expect if
> I had 2-3 children, those could result in 80+ adults before the
> die-off. That's 80+ additional lives that will be spared by my
> not having children. (I know of families with the elders having
> more than 80+ grandchildren and great-grandchildren.)

Those elders didn't have 2-3 children, I'd wager; they had 8-12.

> I wouldn't say I go so far as human extinction. However the only
> way I can see to avoid an inevitable human extinction is to get
> off of the planet. I support human colonization to other planets.
> However, I believe we should leave this planet in peace, one way
> or another.

You might like Orson Scott Card's Ender saga. The solution to
over-population in that is to hurl great big chunks of our population
out to the stars (of course, we happen to know where to send them,
which helps).

> Personally, I find it unlikely that voluntary human extinction
> will really catch on. However I see "my family" as the entire
> human race. I prefer my ideas to catch on rather than my genes.
> There's nothing I can do to improve my genes, but I have much
> more power when it comes to my ideas.

I can definitely see that, and you're dead on about the entire human
race being our family.

My fiancée and I are likely to adopt children; she herself was adopted.

"Voluntary human extinction" shouldn't catch on, but there's plenty of
people who are choosing to be childless. Zero or sub-zero population
growth is a much more reasonable goal (though not terribly likely
anytime soon).

The increase in population lately has largely been a matter of
increased lifespan; in fact, birth rates have been declining for a
while. I think it's possible, if we figure out good ways of better
distributing wealth and education (two factors that are strongly
inversely related to birth rates), that we can reach an equilibrium of
human population within the next century.

Of course, our entire economics is based on the idea of perpetual
expansion. I wonder what sorts of economic trials we'd be faced if we
actually got to a balance point with the world population, or even a
population recession.

> We have other issues, too. We have the fact that once human
> density reaches a certain level we become unlikely to *ever*
> get off of the planet due to accidents killing too many people.
> It is easier to explore new experimental technologies when there
> are still a few empty spaces.

When there are no more empty spaces, we'll have killed the planet's
ability to sustain us. It's as simple as that, as I see it. If we
manage to deforest and pave the world, we're done for.

However, I think we'd have to pretty much want "voluntary human
extinction" to hit that extreme, because it's not like we wouldn't
notice the massive consequences of such action happening as we moved
toward it.

This planet will survive, no matter what we do. The question is whether we will.

> Cheers,
> Steven Black

Cheers? This is a pretty morbid discussion. ;-)
Simón

P.S. I think the only Linux-related thing about all this is that I'm
typing it up on Ubuntu...

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