Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> I can see where, especially on a phone, a more closed system is much
> better for security. Perhaps what I really dislike are phone companies
> and cell phone plans in general. Much to the chagrin of all of my
> friends, I still don't have texting enabled on my phone. I just can't
> see a reason to pay extra money per month to send text messages. I
> don't have a data plan either, but what gets me is that you can purchase
> a data plan, but you also must purchase a texting plan separately. Cell
> phones really seem to heading towards always net connected hand held
> devices that happen to do traditional voice calls. I would love to have
> my ipod touch be able to be net connected like an iphone, but without a
> 2 year contract and only a data plan. I can purchase a phone plan to
> have a phone, but I really don't mind having a seperate device for
> everything else. A device that can be more open if I choose that isn't
> as critical security wise as a traditional cell phone. I'm sure I'm in
> the minority here, but I wish there were more choices all around.
>
> Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some
> fashion, but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial
> program may do damage to their phone? Or maybe I should get an android
> phone and support the competition. . .
>

There are all sorts of third party applications that are available from
the iTunes app store. Do you mean third party apps from sources other
than the app store?

I hear you on your dislike of phone companies and cell phone plans, I'm
not big on them myself.


> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net
> <mailto:markwarner1954@att.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Auty wrote:
>
> If it has taken years for the public to instill some generally
> secure computing practices on Joe sixpack,
>
>
> When did that happen? IMO, the only things that have changed in
> recent years are the ISPs pushing out anti-malware apps at little or
> no cost (replacing the four year old Norton and McAfee trial version
> installs that came with the eMachine from Wal*Mart), Microsoft
> pushing out its Malicious Software Removal Tool on the second
> Tuesday of every month, and SP3 setting Windows updates to the
> defaults. Joe Sixpack remains clueless from a security standpoint.
>
>
> I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact
> that people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all
> suffer. Sorry to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate
> here :)
>
>
> People view their computers like appliances or cars. They might know
> how to operate them, but they have no idea how they work. When cars
> act up they take them to a mechanic. It's rare anymore that an owner
> even changes his own oil. With most appliances, when they break,
> they're pitched. And with computers, they holler at guys like me.
> I'm a lowly computer mechanic. Not very glamorous, but I perform a
> needed service at a fair price -- just like the local greasemonkey.
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> MEPIS Linux
> Registered Linux User #415318
>
>
>
>
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> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
>
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>
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> BLUG@linuxfan.com
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--
Joe Auty
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http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

I can see where, especially on a phone, a more closed system is much better for security.  Perhaps what I really dislike are phone companies and cell phone plans in general.  Much to the chagrin of all of my friends, I still don't have texting enabled on my phone.  I just can't see a reason to pay extra money per month to send text messages.  I don't have a data plan either, but what gets me is that you can purchase a data plan, but you also must purchase a texting plan separately.  Cell phones really seem to heading towards always net connected hand held devices that happen to do traditional voice calls.  I would love to have my ipod touch be able to be net connected like an iphone, but without a 2 year contract and only a data plan.  I can purchase a phone plan to have a phone, but I really don't mind having a seperate device for everything else.  A device that can be more open if I choose that isn't as critical security wise as a traditional cell phone.  I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I wish there were more choices all around. 

Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some fashion, but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial program may do damage to their phone?  Or maybe I should get an android phone and support the competition. . .

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net> wrote:


Joe Auty wrote:

If it has taken years for the public to instill some generally secure computing practices on Joe sixpack,

When did that happen? IMO, the only things that have changed in recent years are the ISPs pushing out anti-malware apps at little or no cost (replacing the four year old Norton and McAfee trial version installs that came with the eMachine from Wal*Mart), Microsoft pushing out its Malicious Software Removal Tool on the second Tuesday of every month, and SP3 setting Windows updates to the defaults. Joe Sixpack remains clueless from a security standpoint.


I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact that people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all suffer. Sorry to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate here :)

People view their computers like appliances or cars. They might know how to operate them, but they have no idea how they work. When cars act up they take them to a mechanic. It's rare anymore that an owner even changes his own oil. With most appliances, when they break, they're pitched. And with computers, they holler at guys like me. I'm a lowly computer mechanic. Not very glamorous, but I perform a needed service at a fair price -- just like the local greasemonkey.

--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318




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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Joe Auty wrote:

> If it has taken years for the public to instill some
> generally secure computing practices on Joe sixpack,

When did that happen? IMO, the only things that have changed in recent
years are the ISPs pushing out anti-malware apps at little or no cost
(replacing the four year old Norton and McAfee trial version installs
that came with the eMachine from Wal*Mart), Microsoft pushing out its
Malicious Software Removal Tool on the second Tuesday of every month,
and SP3 setting Windows updates to the defaults. Joe Sixpack remains
clueless from a security standpoint.

> I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact that
> people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all suffer. Sorry
> to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate here :)

People view their computers like appliances or cars. They might know how
to operate them, but they have no idea how they work. When cars act up
they take them to a mechanic. It's rare anymore that an owner even
changes his own oil. With most appliances, when they break, they're
pitched. And with computers, they holler at guys like me. I'm a lowly
computer mechanic. Not very glamorous, but I perform a needed service at
a fair price -- just like the local greasemonkey.

--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

I'm a little torn on whether or not a phone should be completely open...

Any developer knows that if you give your users a gun they will find a
way to shoot themselves with it. If users could install their own phone
apps from any source, this would eventually open the floodgates to a
whole new generation of Spyware, and other invasive and problematic crap
software. There are already ways to install spy software on certain
phones, as I understand it.

Then, we'd get into lawsuits (and phone bills that threaten bankruptcy)
and all sorts of privacy related problems, support issues, and other
assorted headaches. If it has taken years for the public to instill some
generally secure computing practices on Joe sixpack, it will take an
eternity to teach Joe sixpack how to do whatever they need to do to make
sure that their phone conversations they think are private are actually
secure. We have gone through generations of people that have grown used
to the reality/illusion of phone conversations being private. This
doesn't even touch on bandwidth and metered usage related issues.

So yes, for us it would be wonderful if the iPhone were open this way,
but in reality I think it is smart of Apple to protect users from
themselves, and smart Apple to cover their own asses - I can't fault
them for that. Whether or not it is cool of Apple to dictate what apps
get carried in their iPhone app store is a whole other story I guess,
but forcing users to go to their store at least prevents people from
downloading apps from some dude's Geocities page or from Russia or
something.

I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact that
people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all suffer. Sorry
to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate here :)


Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> Thanks for the good info. It's always easy to get carried away with
> hype. People are developing new ways to connect people to share
> information, be it personal photos, videos, business info, what have
> you, but the technologies that, at least to me, seem the most promising
> or exciting are those that are more open. That's the one big gripe I
> have about the iphone. I have an ipod touch, not an iphone, and it's a
> sweet little piece of hardware with some really creative apps. I
> unlocked my touch, but it was far from easy and Apple is far, far from
> encouraging people to experiment with their system in wasy contrary to
> theirs. Plus I hate iTunes. Big, bloated, yucky piece of software I'm
> supposed to use to 'sync' it with my computer. But I digress. . . .
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu
> <mailto:blacks@indiana.edu>> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 01:11:41AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> > There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite. Haven't
> > tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?
> > Looks cool anyways. .
>
> It looks pretty crappy once you realize how it works.
>
> * http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/17/opera-unite
> * http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/16/thoughts-on-opera-unite/
>
> You get a super-crappy URL (which I consider a nonissue for most), and
> all your content is fed through Opera's centralized Unite proxies (big
> issue when the whole point of the thing is supposed to go decentralized
> -- it isn't at *all* decentralized). As an added bonus, they reserve
> the right to block and/all content as they see fit, and redirect pages
> to other pages. They're not freeing things for the people, they're just
> asking to be our new masters.
>
> All the excitement appears to just be folks regirgitating Opera's press
> releases.
>
>
> I think it is much more exciting to know that Google's Wave application
> has a public protocol site ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/ ) and that
> their goals for it are broader than simply another Google App.
>
> As simply another Google App it falls in to the "ultimately lame due to
> proprietary nature". Things get a whole lot different if there are open
> protocols, and random folks can have their own Wave servers. (Things
> are best if said wave servers are open-source, but with open protocols
> things can be rewritten.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu <mailto:blacks@indiana.edu>> /
> KeyID: 8596FA8E
> Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E
>
>
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> =2fbm
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Thanks for the good info.  It's always easy to get carried away with hype.  People are developing new ways to connect people to share information, be it personal photos, videos, business info, what have you, but the technologies that, at least to me, seem the most promising or exciting are those that are more open.  That's the one big gripe I have about the iphone.  I have an ipod touch, not an iphone, and it's a sweet little piece of hardware with some really creative apps.  I unlocked my touch, but it was far from easy and Apple is far, far from encouraging people to experiment with their system in wasy contrary to theirs.  Plus I hate iTunes.  Big, bloated, yucky piece of software I'm supposed to use to 'sync' it with my computer.  But I digress. . . .

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 01:11:41AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite. Haven't
> tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?
> Looks cool anyways. .

It looks pretty crappy once you realize how it works.

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/17/opera-unite
* http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/16/thoughts-on-opera-unite/

You get a super-crappy URL (which I consider a nonissue for most), and
all your content is fed through Opera's centralized Unite proxies (big
issue when the whole point of the thing is supposed to go decentralized
-- it isn't at *all* decentralized). As an added bonus, they reserve
the right to block and/all content as they see fit, and redirect pages
to other pages. They're not freeing things for the people, they're just
asking to be our new masters.

All the excitement appears to just be folks regirgitating Opera's press
releases.


I think it is much more exciting to know that Google's Wave application
has a public protocol site ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/ ) and that
their goals for it are broader than simply another Google App.

As simply another Google App it falls in to the "ultimately lame due to
proprietary nature". Things get a whole lot different if there are open
protocols, and random folks can have their own Wave servers. (Things
are best if said wave servers are open-source, but with open protocols
things can be rewritten.)

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07  78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E


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=2fbm
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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 01:11:41AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite. Haven't
> tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?
> Looks cool anyways. .

It looks pretty crappy once you realize how it works.

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/17/opera-unite
* http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/16/thoughts-on-opera-unite/

You get a super-crappy URL (which I consider a nonissue for most), and
all your content is fed through Opera's centralized Unite proxies (big
issue when the whole point of the thing is supposed to go decentralized
-- it isn't at *all* decentralized). As an added bonus, they reserve
the right to block and/all content as they see fit, and redirect pages
to other pages. They're not freeing things for the people, they're just
asking to be our new masters.

All the excitement appears to just be folks regirgitating Opera's press
releases.


I think it is much more exciting to know that Google's Wave application
has a public protocol site ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/ ) and that
their goals for it are broader than simply another Google App.

As simply another Google App it falls in to the "ultimately lame due to
proprietary nature". Things get a whole lot different if there are open
protocols, and random folks can have their own Wave servers. (Things
are best if said wave servers are open-source, but with open protocols
things can be rewritten.)

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

[BLUG] opera unite

There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite.  Haven't tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?  Looks cool anyways. .


Ben

Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:48:19AM -0400, Michael Schultheiss wrote:
> Mark Krenz wrote:
> > What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> > are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> > wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?
>
> I use TurboTax.com - it works in almost any browser and doesn't seem to
> care about the OS.

The H&R Block site also works without problems. I've used both in the
past.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:55:50PM +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:58:09AM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
> >
> > As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
> > a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
> > look at Ekiga as well.
>
> Just for fun I checked out if TurboTax runs in Wine, I guess not as it
> has a garbage rating because the installer crashes. Apparently the
> software has some DRM in it that puts some signature on the hard drive's
> starting sectors. BAD! BAD! BAD!

I didn't think anyone tried to do stuff like that anymore. Good gods!

> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?

I've been using web-based taxes for years now. It's been working in
Linux since ~2002 when I started doing it.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] Skype

Mark Krenz wrote:
> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?

I use TurboTax.com - it works in almost any browser and doesn't seem to
care about the OS.
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, Mark Krenz wrote:

> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and
> there are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop
> users), wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a
> Linux version?

Those of us with fixed and relatively simple incomes find
it easier just to pay H&R Block -- and have no sensitive data on
our home machines. (I have just buggered two out of eight up
royally in process of installing Fedora 11; granted they were
expendable, but I'm not inspired with confidence.)

--
Beartooth Implacable, Curmudgeonly Codger Learning Linux
On the Internet, you can never tell who is a dog --
supposing you care -- but you can tell who has a mind.
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Barry Schatz<sorbetninja@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a Windows guest in VirtualBox for things like TurboTax. I've
> heard that turbotax.com will work for Linux users with Firefox, but I
> just don't feel comfortable doing my taxes via website yet.
>
> -Barry

That's how we do ours in my household.

Haven't had any issues with it so far.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Skype

Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:58:09AM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
>
>> As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
>> a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
>> look at Ekiga as well.
>>
>
> Just for fun I checked out if TurboTax runs in Wine, I guess not as it
> has a garbage rating because the installer crashes. Apparently the
> software has some DRM in it that puts some signature on the hard drive's
> starting sectors. BAD! BAD! BAD!
>
> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?
>
> I guess TaxAct is an alternative that works in wine to some degree.
>
I have a Windows guest in VirtualBox for things like TurboTax. I've
heard that turbotax.com will work for Linux users with Firefox, but I
just don't feel comfortable doing my taxes via website yet.

-Barry
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:58:09AM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
>
> As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
> a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
> look at Ekiga as well.

Just for fun I checked out if TurboTax runs in Wine, I guess not as it
has a garbage rating because the installer crashes. Apparently the
software has some DRM in it that puts some signature on the hard drive's
starting sectors. BAD! BAD! BAD!

What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?

I guess TaxAct is an alternative that works in wine to some degree.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

Steven Black wrote:
> You should be fairly flexible with regards to the headset. The USB
> headsets work well in either OS.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my query about Skype.

As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
look at Ekiga as well.

Again, thanks for the suggestions. Much appreciated.

Ron
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