Tuesday, July 31, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

Joe Auty wrote:
> "It's this! No wait, now it's this and does this, based on this, but
> different than this other thing... Now it's the same again, but it has a
> different name! Ignore these other websites, they're outdated now" :)
>
Sounds like AT&T/Bell South/SBC/Ameritech/Cingular...try to follow
Stephen Colbert's explanation:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2004785759717366066

-Chris
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Monday, July 30, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Off-topic-ish (not!)

sounds like a perfect candidate for running EMC!
http://www.linuxcnc.org

i could come take a look at it i guess.. or maybe take it off your hands :)
in the meantime a real mfg/model number might help, or it might not. also
you can stop by #emc on irc.freenode.net and chat it up.

-fenn

> We've got a big sander thingy here...I know for a fact that it's not been
> used, because it doesn't work, for at least four years (i.e. as long as I've
> been here.) The nice scrap of paper the guys gave me says
> "Allen-Bradley
> Keypad Cat. #
> 2711-K3A5L1
> Processor
> Micrologic 1200"
>
> Basically, we're looking at motor controls, limit switches, controlling
> variable rates of travel and RPM. What's wrong with the computer? "It
> doesn't work."
>
> Not real helpful, I know...anyone know where I might start to find someone
> who could take a look at this? I know for a fact that the original
> manufacturer of this equipment has been out of business for a number of
> years. We hear rumors that a fab shop in Wisconsin or somesuch has one of
> these and it works....
>
> Ana Greavu
>
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Re: [BLUG] Xen vs. VMWare

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 07:31:51PM GMT, Gaddis, Jeremy L. [jlgaddis@ivytech.edu] said the following:
>
> Lots of Red Hat folks seem to be abandoning their work on Xen and
> concentrating on KVM. virt-manager is supposed to support it as well,
> and I've been told that RH will be making migration tools for a seamless
> transition from Xen to KVM. KVM should be in the next major release of
> RHEL and is already in Fedora 7.

Yeah, i got the impression from talking to this consultant that Red
Hat wants to be agnostic about the whole thing. They have sent out
memos telling people to just call it virtualization and not mention Xen.
I've heard that Dell is also trying to make it so that the Xen and other
hypervisor developers can standardize things so that they can put the
hypervisor in hardware. That's just a rumor though. Not sure what will
win out.


--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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RE: [BLUG] Xen vs. VMWare

Mark Krenz wrote:
> I haven't done any testing with full virtualization yet, but a guy
from
> Red Hat told me that full virtualization is faster on CPU instructions
> and paravirt is faster overall (including I/O).

I haven't used full virt either, but other RHEL .edu folks have told me
that full virt is "significantly slower" than para virt (of course, I
don't have any numbers). AIUI, there's also a 2 GB RAM limit on full
virt Xen VMs (at least in RHEL 5).

> If you want something that makes it easier, you can try CentOS 5 or
> RHEL 5 or Fedora 7, they all have a tool called virt-manager that does
> things graphically. Honestly, I don't like it as well as the xm tool
> because there is some functionality that is missing.

Lots of Red Hat folks seem to be abandoning their work on Xen and
concentrating on KVM. virt-manager is supposed to support it as well,
and I've been told that RH will be making migration tools for a seamless
transition from Xen to KVM. KVM should be in the next major release of
RHEL and is already in Fedora 7.

> So its fast enough to be able to run production websites on. But

We have a handful of Xen VMs that we've been running for a good while.
They're production, but not critical. Had RHEL5 came out on schedule,
we would have ~15 production boxes running in Xen VMs today.


--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
812.330.6156 (w) 812.391.0358 (m)

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RE: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

Richard Knepper wrote:
> Beryl is the window manager, Emerald is the theme manager. ATI's
> support for Linux is the awful.

Henri Richard promised us at the last Red Hat Summit that this was going
to change.

He didn't come out and say they were going to be releasing open source
drivers and it seemed like he chose his words very carefully, but that
was the impression that he gave everyone.

It remains to be seen, of course, but we can hope.

--
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Network Administrator
812.330.6156 (w) 812.391.0358 (m)

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[BLUG] Off-topic-ish

We've got a big sander thingy here...I know for a fact that it's not been used, because it doesn't work, for at least four years (i.e. as long as I've been here.) The nice scrap of paper the guys gave me says
"Allen-Bradley
Keypad Cat. #
     2711-K3A5L1
Processor
     Micrologic 1200"

Basically, we're looking at motor controls, limit switches, controlling variable rates of travel and RPM. What's wrong with the computer? "It doesn't work."

Not real helpful, I know...anyone know where I might start to find someone who could take a look at this? I know for a fact that the original manufacturer of this equipment has been out of business for a number of years. We hear rumors that a fab shop in Wisconsin or somesuch has one of these and it works....

Ana Greavu

Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Beryl is the window manager, Emerald is the theme manager. ATI's
support for Linux is the awful.

- -Rich

Joe Auty wrote:
> Richard Knepper wrote:
>> Joe,
>> Are you talking about support within Ber/XGl/piz for ATI or support in
>> fglrx for your model card?
>>
>> I've used Beryl and Emerald with XGL on two different fglrx-supported
>> cards, without problems, in gentoo and ubuntu.
>>
>> Rich
>
> What is Emerald?
>
> I've tried fglrx and the open source driver, both to no avail. The info
> I found online (on several different pages) seems to suggest that the
> Radeon X600 is a no-go.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Pawsitive Results wrote:
>>> My understanding is that the project forked into Compiz and Beryl, and
>>> has now been disenforked (unforked? spooned?) into Compiz Fusion. I know
>>> this only because I looked it up last night 'cause I had the same
>>> confusion.
>>> Ana
>>> On 7/30/07, *Joe Auty* <joe@netmusician.org
>>> <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>> wrote:
>>> Hey guys,
>>> I'm kind of locked into a rather application centric approach to
>>> computing rather than document centric (i.e. the Mac way).
>>> I was just looking at this very cool demo of Compiz Fusion:
>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w
>>> There are several interesting features in here which would make for some
>>> interesting usability discussion, as well as some useless features such
>>> as the fire paint.
>>> However, one thing I noticed was the OS X Dock. I know there are a few
>>> dock-like implementations, but it seems like all of them require Beryl
>>> to work properly.
>>> At work I'm stuck with a Radeon x600 card, which is actually pretty
>>> modern but unsupported in Beryl. With all of this changing of
>>> communities that has gone on - XGL (or whatever the acronym is), Beryl,
>>> Compiz, Compiz Fusion, I'm a little bit confused as to what the current
>>> status is. My sense is that Compiz Fusion is the project to follow.
>>> At any rate, I'd like to know what page to monitor to see when/if my
>>> x600 card will be supported. I never know whether the pages I do find
>>> are up-to-date or relevant.
>>> Any illumination here would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>>> (If you want to have a usability discussion about this tech demo, I'd
>>> welcome that too :)
>>
>>> --
>>> Joe Auty
>>> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
>>>

http://www.netmusician.org
>>> joe@netmusician.org <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> BLUG mailing list
>>> BLUG@linuxfan.com <mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com>
>>>

http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------
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"You deserve free software."
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 06:01:48PM GMT, Joe Auty [joe@netmusician.org] said the following:
>
> One I just found out recently was gimp-print -> gutenprint.
>

What? I hadn't heard of that one. Why? I mean, its called Gimp
anyways. Oh well.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Xen vs. VMWare

Its Intel VT. The AMD equivilent is called Pacifica. VMWare has the
plus of being graphic for all configuration and its also generally the
current leader in virtual technologies on PC hardware. Xen is faster
overall but I've heard that VMware is faster on CPU instructions. The
problem is that part of the VMware license is that it won't let you
publish benchmarks. So its not easy to get access to independent tests
unless you do them yourself. I did some of my own tests before
implementing it at Suso and found that Xen is very fast. Nearly the
same as running on the hardware without going through Xen. On
paravirtualization, the CPU is about 5% slower than a native machine. I
haven't done any testing with full virtualization yet, but a guy from
Red Hat told me that full virtualization is faster on CPU instructions
and paravirt is faster overall (including I/O).

I tested CPU speed by running the Povray raytracer on several virtual
machines on the same physical machine and then determining the total
time based on work completed. Interestingly enough, the P4 that I was
using for it was most efficient not with one VM, but with about 12 VMs
running at once, all running the same job. Once I got to 16, it was less
efficient. Efficiency was somewhat of a bell curve. So at least with
Povray, if you wanted to render more in the same time, you should run 12
processes at once instead of 1 by 1 sequentially. As a side note, I
mentioned this to the Red Hat consultant that was here at Cook last
week, he went on to work at Dreamworks Animation this week, setting up a
render farm for their next 3D movie, and he is supposed to do it with
Xen virtual machines.

Xen is still a prominent project and should get some important
features in the next couple versions, like better hardware video
support, etc.

If you want something that makes it easier, you can try CentOS 5 or
RHEL 5 or Fedora 7, they all have a tool called virt-manager that does
things graphically. Honestly, I don't like it as well as the xm tool
because there is some functionality that is missing.

If you want to see Xen in action, go to any one of these sites and
you'll experience the end result of running Xen VMs.

All of these are completely on a VM:

http://suso.suso.org/

http://www.straight2yourdoor.com/ (Bloomington-based delivery company)

These sites use databases that are on a VM:

http://www.bloomingpedia.org/

http://www.londoncommons.net/ (Kinda slow because of the software
overhead for this site)


So its fast enough to be able to run production websites on. But the
biggest plus for me in using Xen is the ability to make template
machines. I can create a machine from a template in about 15-20
minutes. This is very useful for me at least if I need to move some
service off of a server. A real example of this is that I needed to
move the email database service off of the old shared user machine at
Suso, but I needed to be able to have MySQL 4.0, because that's what
this server runs, so I made a machine that just ran MySQL 4.0. If I had
to put MySQL 4.0 on some of my other newer machines, I would have run
into problems because I'm already using MySQL 5.0 on most of them.

So its highly useful. I've been working on a way of using Xen that I
call the Suso Xen Method (Of course), part of it is to use sparse disk
loopback files instead of LVM volumes on the root domain like some of
the tutorials recommend. I find using loopback files to be more
convenient and in my experience, there is hardly any performance loss.
I'll post to the list when I have it all written out.

Ok, I meant for this to be a lot shorter. :-(

Mark

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 04:59:45PM GMT, Joe Auty [joe@netmusician.org] said the following:
> Hi,
>
> Other than the fact that under Intel XT compatible hardware Xen offers
> full hardware virtualization rather than the para-virtualization offered
> by VMWare and the like, what other sorts of advantages are there to
> running Xen? I don't really care about using my native video card in the
> OSes I want to virtualize.
>
> One of my reasons for asking is that it seems that setting up VMWare
> Player is much easier under Linux than Xen. I know that Xen was marketed
> as the next coming originally, but it seems like this excitement has
> died down?
>
> What is the current status with the Xen project, and are there plans to
> simply the setup process?
>
> I've never actually seen Xen in action, because it appears like the BIOS
> of this PC I'm on doesn't have an option to enable XT, and Xen is
> generating related error messages, so I kind of gave up on it thinking I
> wasn't going to gain much I couldn't get in VMWare. Should I give it
> another go? What is Xen like in managing these OSes, disk images, etc?
> I'd love to use an open source project for this sort of thing rather
> than VMWare.
>
> I ask the list because I know that there was either a Xen meeting (that
> I missed), or one planned (that I will surely make if I can). I would
> assume that this means that there are those on this list that know more
> than I about this project :)
>
> Anyone care to illuminate here?
>
>
> --
> Joe Auty
> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
> http://www.netmusician.org
> joe@netmusician.org
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
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Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 05:29:54PM GMT, Joe Auty [joe@netmusician.org] said the following:
>> This is cool with me, I'm more of an engineer so this is no slight, but
>> all of these forks, name changes, etc. must be a marketing nightmare.
>> Could you imagine trying to push a product on the masses in this fashion?
>>
>
> Forks are one thing. They happen when development teams split up.
> Name changes are another. At least when the project is popular, name
> changes are usually because of trademark reasons. Its a major annoyance
> in the open source world, but I guess its something we'll have to deal
> with. Some that come to mind that happened because of this are:
>
> x11amp -> XMMS
> Sawmill -> Sawfish
> Ethereal -> Wireshark
> Gaim -> Pidgin
>
> Cups is one that is coming up, but that will probably be more of a
> fork because people won't want Apple in control. Cups, forks, spoons.
> I want my tea.
>
>

I can think of several other name changes... That would be an
interesting (and long list) to come up with if we all put our heads
together :)

One I just found out recently was gimp-print -> gutenprint.

--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

Richard Knepper wrote:
> Joe,
> Are you talking about support within Ber/XGl/piz for ATI or support in
> fglrx for your model card?
>
> I've used Beryl and Emerald with XGL on two different fglrx-supported
> cards, without problems, in gentoo and ubuntu.
>
> Rich

What is Emerald?

I've tried fglrx and the open source driver, both to no avail. The info
I found online (on several different pages) seems to suggest that the
Radeon X600 is a no-go.

>
> Pawsitive Results wrote:
>> My understanding is that the project forked into Compiz and Beryl, and
>> has now been disenforked (unforked? spooned?) into Compiz Fusion. I know
>> this only because I looked it up last night 'cause I had the same
>> confusion.
>
>> Ana
>
>> On 7/30/07, *Joe Auty* <joe@netmusician.org
>> <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>> wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>
>> I'm kind of locked into a rather application centric approach to
>> computing rather than document centric (i.e. the Mac way).
>
>> I was just looking at this very cool demo of Compiz Fusion:
>
>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w
>
>> There are several interesting features in here which would make for some
>> interesting usability discussion, as well as some useless features such
>> as the fire paint.
>
>> However, one thing I noticed was the OS X Dock. I know there are a few
>> dock-like implementations, but it seems like all of them require Beryl
>> to work properly.
>
>> At work I'm stuck with a Radeon x600 card, which is actually pretty
>> modern but unsupported in Beryl. With all of this changing of
>> communities that has gone on - XGL (or whatever the acronym is), Beryl,
>> Compiz, Compiz Fusion, I'm a little bit confused as to what the current
>> status is. My sense is that Compiz Fusion is the project to follow.
>
>> At any rate, I'd like to know what page to monitor to see when/if my
>> x600 card will be supported. I never know whether the pages I do find
>> are up-to-date or relevant.
>
>> Any illumination here would be greatly appreciated!
>
>
>> (If you want to have a usability discussion about this tech demo, I'd
>> welcome that too :)
>
>
>> --
>> Joe Auty
>> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
>>

http://www.netmusician.org
>> joe@netmusician.org <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com <mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com>
>>

http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
>
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http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 05:29:54PM GMT, Joe Auty [joe@netmusician.org] said the following:
>
> This is cool with me, I'm more of an engineer so this is no slight, but
> all of these forks, name changes, etc. must be a marketing nightmare.
> Could you imagine trying to push a product on the masses in this fashion?
>

Forks are one thing. They happen when development teams split up.
Name changes are another. At least when the project is popular, name
changes are usually because of trademark reasons. Its a major annoyance
in the open source world, but I guess its something we'll have to deal
with. Some that come to mind that happened because of this are:

x11amp -> XMMS
Sawmill -> Sawfish
Ethereal -> Wireshark
Gaim -> Pidgin

Cups is one that is coming up, but that will probably be more of a
fork because people won't want Apple in control. Cups, forks, spoons.
I want my tea.


--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Joe,
Are you talking about support within Ber/XGl/piz for ATI or support in
fglrx for your model card?

I've used Beryl and Emerald with XGL on two different fglrx-supported
cards, without problems, in gentoo and ubuntu.

Rich

Pawsitive Results wrote:
> My understanding is that the project forked into Compiz and Beryl, and
> has now been disenforked (unforked? spooned?) into Compiz Fusion. I know
> this only because I looked it up last night 'cause I had the same
> confusion.
>
> Ana
>
> On 7/30/07, *Joe Auty* <joe@netmusician.org
> <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I'm kind of locked into a rather application centric approach to
> computing rather than document centric (i.e. the Mac way).
>
> I was just looking at this very cool demo of Compiz Fusion:
>
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w
>
> There are several interesting features in here which would make for some
> interesting usability discussion, as well as some useless features such
> as the fire paint.
>
> However, one thing I noticed was the OS X Dock. I know there are a few
> dock-like implementations, but it seems like all of them require Beryl
> to work properly.
>
> At work I'm stuck with a Radeon x600 card, which is actually pretty
> modern but unsupported in Beryl. With all of this changing of
> communities that has gone on - XGL (or whatever the acronym is), Beryl,
> Compiz, Compiz Fusion, I'm a little bit confused as to what the current
> status is. My sense is that Compiz Fusion is the project to follow.
>
> At any rate, I'd like to know what page to monitor to see when/if my
> x600 card will be supported. I never know whether the pages I do find
> are up-to-date or relevant.
>
> Any illumination here would be greatly appreciated!
>
>
> (If you want to have a usability discussion about this tech demo, I'd
> welcome that too :)
>
>
> --
> Joe Auty
> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
>

http://www.netmusician.org
> joe@netmusician.org <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com <mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com>
>

http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>

- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------
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Grid Infrastructure Group 812.855.9574

"You deserve free software."
PGP Public Key:
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

Pawsitive Results wrote:
> My understanding is that the project forked into Compiz and Beryl, and
> has now been disenforked (unforked? spooned?) into Compiz Fusion. I know
> this only because I looked it up last night 'cause I had the same
> confusion.
>

I don't mean to turn this into a critique of Linux as a whole, but this
is the sort of evidence that Linux is sort of a more engineer-centric OS
than an end-user one.

This is cool with me, I'm more of an engineer so this is no slight, but
all of these forks, name changes, etc. must be a marketing nightmare.
Could you imagine trying to push a product on the masses in this fashion?

"It's this! No wait, now it's this and does this, based on this, but
different than this other thing... Now it's the same again, but it has a
different name! Ignore these other websites, they're outdated now" :)


> Ana
>
> On 7/30/07, *Joe Auty* <joe@netmusician.org
> <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>> wrote:
>
> Hey guys,
>
> I'm kind of locked into a rather application centric approach to
> computing rather than document centric (i.e. the Mac way).
>
> I was just looking at this very cool demo of Compiz Fusion:
>
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w
>
> There are several interesting features in here which would make for some
> interesting usability discussion, as well as some useless features such
> as the fire paint.
>
> However, one thing I noticed was the OS X Dock. I know there are a few
> dock-like implementations, but it seems like all of them require Beryl
> to work properly.
>
> At work I'm stuck with a Radeon x600 card, which is actually pretty
> modern but unsupported in Beryl. With all of this changing of
> communities that has gone on - XGL (or whatever the acronym is), Beryl,
> Compiz, Compiz Fusion, I'm a little bit confused as to what the current
> status is. My sense is that Compiz Fusion is the project to follow.
>
> At any rate, I'd like to know what page to monitor to see when/if my
> x600 card will be supported. I never know whether the pages I do find
> are up-to-date or relevant.
>
> Any illumination here would be greatly appreciated!
>
>
> (If you want to have a usability discussion about this tech demo, I'd
> welcome that too :)
>
>
> --
> Joe Auty
> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
>

http://www.netmusician.org
> joe@netmusician.org <mailto:joe@netmusician.org>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com <mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com>
>

http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] Compiz Fusion

My understanding is that the project forked into Compiz and Beryl, and has now been disenforked (unforked? spooned?) into Compiz Fusion. I know this only because I looked it up last night 'cause I had the same confusion.

Ana

On 7/30/07, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
Hey guys,

I'm kind of locked into a rather application centric approach to
computing rather than document centric (i.e. the Mac way).

I was just looking at this very cool demo of Compiz Fusion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w

There are several interesting features in here which would make for some
interesting usability discussion, as well as some useless features such
as the fire paint.

However, one thing I noticed was the OS X Dock. I know there are a few
dock-like implementations, but it seems like all of them require Beryl
to work properly.

At work I'm stuck with a Radeon x600 card, which is actually pretty
modern but unsupported in Beryl. With all of this changing of
communities that has gone on - XGL (or whatever the acronym is), Beryl,
Compiz, Compiz Fusion, I'm a little bit confused as to what the current
status is. My sense is that Compiz Fusion is the project to follow.

At any rate, I'd like to know what page to monitor to see when/if my
x600 card will be supported. I never know whether the pages I do find
are up-to-date or relevant.

Any illumination here would be greatly appreciated!


(If you want to have a usability discussion about this tech demo, I'd
welcome that too :)


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
_______________________________________________
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http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

[BLUG] Xen vs. VMWare

Hi,

Other than the fact that under Intel XT compatible hardware Xen offers
full hardware virtualization rather than the para-virtualization offered
by VMWare and the like, what other sorts of advantages are there to
running Xen? I don't really care about using my native video card in the
OSes I want to virtualize.

One of my reasons for asking is that it seems that setting up VMWare
Player is much easier under Linux than Xen. I know that Xen was marketed
as the next coming originally, but it seems like this excitement has
died down?

What is the current status with the Xen project, and are there plans to
simply the setup process?

I've never actually seen Xen in action, because it appears like the BIOS
of this PC I'm on doesn't have an option to enable XT, and Xen is
generating related error messages, so I kind of gave up on it thinking I
wasn't going to gain much I couldn't get in VMWare. Should I give it
another go? What is Xen like in managing these OSes, disk images, etc?
I'd love to use an open source project for this sort of thing rather
than VMWare.

I ask the list because I know that there was either a Xen meeting (that
I missed), or one planned (that I will surely make if I can). I would
assume that this means that there are those on this list that know more
than I about this project :)

Anyone care to illuminate here?


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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[BLUG] Compiz Fusion

Hey guys,

I'm kind of locked into a rather application centric approach to
computing rather than document centric (i.e. the Mac way).

I was just looking at this very cool demo of Compiz Fusion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Fbk52Mk1w

There are several interesting features in here which would make for some
interesting usability discussion, as well as some useless features such
as the fire paint.

However, one thing I noticed was the OS X Dock. I know there are a few
dock-like implementations, but it seems like all of them require Beryl
to work properly.

At work I'm stuck with a Radeon x600 card, which is actually pretty
modern but unsupported in Beryl. With all of this changing of
communities that has gone on - XGL (or whatever the acronym is), Beryl,
Compiz, Compiz Fusion, I'm a little bit confused as to what the current
status is. My sense is that Compiz Fusion is the project to follow.

At any rate, I'd like to know what page to monitor to see when/if my
x600 card will be supported. I never know whether the pages I do find
are up-to-date or relevant.

Any illumination here would be greatly appreciated!


(If you want to have a usability discussion about this tech demo, I'd
welcome that too :)


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
_______________________________________________
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Sunday, July 29, 2007

[BLUG] Loan me a digital piano or synthesizer

This is really off topic, but you are people who I know and often
computers and music are skills that go together. Does anyone on the
list have a decent digital piano or synthesizer that they are not using
for the time being. I know a lot of people buy things an then they sit
around and collect dust. You can just loan one to me for 6 to 12 months
and then I'll give it back to you. Or I'll give it back to you if I
decide its not for me. Or if you have one that you'd be willing to sell
for cheap, I could take a look.

I have recently wanted to revisit my piano skills and want to make
sure I'm really into it before I pay $1000+ for a new one. I used to
own a Kurzweil PC88MX that I kept in great condition, but I sold it 6
years ago when I needed some money. So I know how to take care of these
kinds of instruments and I would take care of yours just the same.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Thursday, July 26, 2007

[BLUG] Fwd: City of Bloomington IT Jobs: Systems Administrator & Usability/Webmaster

Wow, they are really looking for some people.

----- Forwarded message from Rick Dietz <dietzr@bloomington.in.gov> -----

Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:48:50 -0400
From: Rick Dietz <dietzr@bloomington.in.gov>
To: Rick Dietz <dietzr@bloomington.in.gov>
Subject: City of Bloomington IT Jobs: Systems Administrator & Usability/Webmaster

Hello,

Bloomington's IT department is currently seeking motivated and
qualified applicants to fill two critical positions with the City.
I'm writing because you might know someone who might be interested in
our Systems Administrator position or our Usability/UI/Webmaster
position in the City of Bloomington's Information & Technology
Services (ITS) Dept. If you have any friends, colleagues or
acquaintances that are looking for a rewarding and challenging
technology position please take this into consideration and forward
to anyone you think might be interested. Thank you.

-Rick

-----

Applications available here:
http://www.bloomington.in.gov/employment/jobs.php
Positions close on August 6th.

----------------------------------------
Rick Dietz, Director
Information & Technology Services Dept.
City of Bloomington, Indiana
812.349.3485 (office) 812.360.2905 (cell)
rickdietz (skype name)
dietzr@bloomington.in.gov

----- End forwarded message -----

--
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Friday, July 20, 2007

[BLUG] Bloomingpedia presentation

I know this isn't Linux, but I wanted to remind everyone that we're
having a presentation on Bloomingpedia tommorow at the Monroe County
Public Library Auditorium starting at 2pm. You are all welcome to
attend. Chris Eller and I will be presenting. More information is
available here:

http://www.bloomingpedia.org/wiki/Bloomingpedia:Introductory_Presentation_2007

Thanks,
Mark

--
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Bloomington Linux Users Group
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Wednesday, July 18, 2007

[BLUG] Quicktime VR stuff

I know this is quite off topic and doesn't involve Linux at all, but
would anybody here happen to know of anybody local that does
panoramic/Quicktime VR type stuff? I have a client who is interested in
including some movies on her site, and I'm not really connected with the
local photographer scene...


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Monday, July 16, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Running out of memory during log turnover

Is this always happening on the same time of the day?

If so, check your crontab(s) to verify that there isn't an unrelated reason
for memory to be low that time of night.

I know you're seeing the problem with Apache, but have you checked your other
log files? Sometimes a relatively minor warning in another logfile, at the
time that you're having the issue with main problem, can help you pinpoint
what is going on.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Sat, Jul 14, 2007 at 11:29:19PM -0400, Joe Auty wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm wondering if anybody knows what I might do to address this problem.
> I'm using FreeBSD and Apache is having a hard time when my Apache error
> log files turn over causing Apache to crash with the following output to
> my error log... No other logs of any sort on the system cause this
> problem, but this happens consistently with my Apache error log:

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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

As others have said, this technique is decades old. There is nothing harmful
about it.

This technique is older than Linux, let alone the Ext2 file-system. Every
file-system for Linux has to support this, as it is an inherent
characteristic of Unix-like file-systems and our ability to do upgrades of
live systems (and perform rm -r / and actually delete everything).

Most security measures are about reducing risk. If you only have a temp. file
as an open-able file for a short period of time, it reduces the risk of
others snooping it on you. -- Especially when the names are picked truly
randomly.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 04:05:49PM +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> # lsof | grep deleted
> [snip]
> mysqld 31958 mysql 7u REG 9,0 0 15 /tmp/ibwZfdKe (deleted)
> mysqld 31958 mysql 13u REG 9,0 0 16 /tmp/ibR0K4tQ (deleted)
> mysqld 31959 mysql 6u REG 9,0 0 14 /tmp/ibuPNjWc (deleted)
> mysqld 31959 mysql 7u REG 9,0 0 15 /tmp/ibwZfdKe (deleted)
> mysqld 31959 mysql 13u REG 9,0 0 16 /tmp/ibR0K4tQ (deleted)
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Saturday, July 14, 2007

[BLUG] Running out of memory during log turnover

Hello,

I'm wondering if anybody knows what I might do to address this problem.
I'm using FreeBSD and Apache is having a hard time when my Apache error
log files turn over causing Apache to crash with the following output to
my error log... No other logs of any sort on the system cause this
problem, but this happens consistently with my Apache error log:

Jul 14 23:00:00 netmusician newsyslog[81819]: logfile turned over due to
size>5000K
Out of memory during request for 32 bytes, total sbrk() is 10196992 bytes!
Callback called exit at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/HTML/Element.pm line 1502.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/HTML/Formatter.pm line 106.
Callback called exit at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/HTML/Formatter.pm line 106.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/HTML/FormatText.pm line 68.
Callback called exit at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.8/HTML/FormatText.pm line 68.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at
/usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/Transaction_Overlay.pm line 84.
Callback called exit at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/Transaction_Overlay.pm
line 84.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at
/usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/Transactions.pm line 73.
Callback called exit at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/Transactions.pm line 73.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/Record.pm
line 1490.
Callback called exit at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/Record.pm line 1490.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at
/usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/CurrentUser.pm line 72.
Callback called exit at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT/CurrentUser.pm line 72.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT.pm line 49.
Callback called exit at /usr/local/rt3/lib/RT.pm line 49.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at /usr/local/rt3/bin/webmux.pl line 66.
Callback called exit at /usr/local/rt3/bin/webmux.pl line 66.

It looks like RT is a part of this problem consistently each time this
has happened... RT is setup to use mod_perl.

I've tried various Apache tuning techniques thinking that there was some
sort of memory leak, but I haven't been able to isolate this problem.
Since it is a PITA to manually have to restart Apache every time this
happens, I'm hoping that some of you may have some ideas as to some
things I can try here?

The other reason why I think this might be an Apache problem is because
of the several constant error messages that I see in my error log such as:

[Sat Jul 14 23:11:12 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.2) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:12 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.3) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:12 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.4) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:12 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.5) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:12 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.6) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:13 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.7) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:13 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.8) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.9) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.10) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.11) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Connection to child 3 established
(server netmusician.org:443, client 74.130.30.11)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Seeding PRNG with 136 bytes of entropy
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.12) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Initial (No.1) HTTPS request received
for child 3 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.13) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.2) HTTPS request
received for child 3 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:14 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.14) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:15 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.3) HTTPS request
received for child 3 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:15 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.15) HTTPS request
received for child 2 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:15 2007] [info] Subsequent (No.4) HTTPS request
received for child 3 (server netmusician.org:443)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:30 2007] [info] (70007)The timeout specified has
expired: SSL input filter read failed.
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:30 2007] [info] Connection to child 2 closed with
standard shutdown(server netmusician.org:443, client 74.130.30.11)
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:30 2007] [info] (70007)The timeout specified has
expired: SSL input filter read failed.
[Sat Jul 14 23:11:30 2007] [info] Connection to child 3 closed with
standard shutdown(server netmusician.org:443, client 74.130.30.11)

I'm not entirely convinced that my Apache install is healthy, although
it seems to behave just fine and I've noticed no real problems with
Apache. It has been perfectly stable, outside of this reproducible crash
caused by log file turnover.

I'm kind of grasping at straws here, I know.


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Friday, July 13, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 04:16:50PM GMT, Dave Monnier REN-ISAC [dmonnier@ren-isac.net] said the following:
>
> So I wonder, how does this come into play with reserve blocks, quotas, etc?
> I wonder how much stuff depends on intact metadata.

Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be affected by it. At least in Linux
2.2.19 (machine I have access to that has quotas turned on):

Here is a program I quickly wrote in perl to do this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl -w

# This is a test to see if I can defeat quota limits by deleting a file
# with an open file handle.

open(FILE, ">/home/markk/largefile");

$i = 0;
$limit = 4600000;
while ($i < $limit) {
print FILE "0";
$i++;
}

sleep 10;
unlink('/home/markk/largefile');

sleep 300;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

$ ./test.pl &
[1] 2012
$ ls -l largefile
-rw-r--r-- 1 markk business 393216 Jul 13 13:42 largefile
$ ls -lh largefile
-rw-r--r-- 1 markk business 4.2M Jul 13 13:43 largefile
$ ls -lh largefile
-rw-r--r-- 1 markk business 4.4M Jul 13 13:43 largefile
$ quota -v
Disk quotas for user markk (uid 4505):
Filesystem blocks quota limit grace files quota limit
/dev/sdb1 4640 5000 5500 27 0 0
$ ls -lh largefile
ls: largefile: No such file or directory
$ quota -v
Disk quotas for user markk (uid 4505):
Filesystem blocks quota limit grace files quota limit
/dev/sdb1 4640 5000 5500 27 0 0
$ dd if=/dev/zero of=anotherfile bs=1M count=1000
/home: write failed, user disk quota exceeded too long.
/home: write
failed, user disk quota exceeded too long.
dd:
anotherfile: Disk quota exceeded
1+0 records in
0+0 records out

$ jobs
[1]+ Running ./test.pl &
$ kill %
[1]+ Terminated ./test.pl
$
$ quota -v
Disk quotas for user markk (uid 4505):
Filesystem blocks quota limit grace files quota limit
/dev/sdb1 472 5000 5500 27 0 0

I'm guessing that this also doesn't work in 2.6, but probably checking
is not a bad idea. It would be interesting if it did work and you could
somehow write a program that used FUSE to have a hidden filesystem
inside a deleted file that exceeded your quota.


--
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Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 12:16 -0400, Dave Monnier REN-ISAC wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Mark Krenz wrote:
>
> > Its interesting to note that mysql seems to do this too:
>
> Wow, sure enough.
>
> So I wonder, how does this come into play with reserve blocks, quotas, etc?
> I wonder how much stuff depends on intact metadata.
>

Quotas, block counts, etc are all handled at the inode level -- not the
directory level. So they're just normal files. They just don't have a
name in the filesystem.

You can play around with it by doing something like this in perl:
-------------------------------------------
#!/usr/bin/perl

open(H,">foo");
print H "hello world!\n";
dumpstat("open filehandle",H);
link("foo","foo.link");
dumpstat("two links to filehandle",H);
unlink("foo");
dumpstat("foo is now gone",H);
unlink("foo.link");
dumpstat("foo.link is now also gone",H);
# the file still exists and has data in it
close(H);
# the OS now cleans up, since there are no links and
# the only process with it open has closed it.

sub dumpstat {
my($message,$thing)=@_;
my($dev,$ino,$mode,$nlink,$uid,$gid,$rdev,$size,
$atime,$mtime,$ctime,$blksize,$blocks)
= stat(*$thing);
print $message,"\n";
print " inode: $ino, nlink: $nlink\n";
}
------------------------------

The filesystem uses the inode as the basis for all file operations. The
names are just syntactic sugar for us mere mortals! There's a couple of
side effects of this design decision:

* Each file (the contents & metadata) is uniquely identifiable by a
pair: (device number, inode number). On the above perl script (and
using the 'stat' program) we can see this information:

File: `inode_fun'
Size: 549 Blocks: 16 IO Block: 4096 regular file
Device: fd00h/64768d Inode: 4718621 Links: 1
Access: (0664/-rw-rw-r--) Uid: (11907/bdwheele) Gid: ( 500/bdwheele)
Access: 2007-07-13 12:34:07.000000000 -0400
Modify: 2007-07-13 12:34:03.000000000 -0400
Change: 2007-07-13 12:34:03.000000000 -0400

The only thing that's in the directory entry is the name 'inode_fun' and
the inode number. The 'Device' part comes from the OS, and everything
else comes from the inode.

* any number of names can point to a single set of data. Unlike DOS
complaining about "cross-linked files" when running chkdsk, having
multiple names for a file is a feature.

* mv only changes the name by adding a new link in the destination and
removing the old link in the source. No data is copied. This is why on
early versions of unix you couldn't mv across filesystem boundaries (the
inode numbers are not unique across devices). GNU's mv handles this
case by making a copy.

* The modify and change times, which seem redundant, actually measure
different things. The change time (ctime) is when the inode (meta) data
was changed: ownership, permissions, size, etc. Modification time
(mtime) is when the content was changed. Usually changing the content
changes the file time, so mtime and ctime are the same, but that's not
necessarily true.

* that goofy remove a file while its open thing works :)

* if you don't create enough inodes at filesystem creation time, you
could end up where you couldn't create a new file even though there were
disk blocks free. Its not a big deal these days, but it happened to me
on floppy disks a couple of times, since you want to conserve as much
space as possible by not "wasting" space for the inode tables. df -i
will give you the inode statistics.


That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Hopefully it put
everyone into a dreamy Friday afternoon sleep!

Brian

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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 11:56 -0400, Dave Monnier REN-ISAC wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Brian Wheeler wrote:
>
> >> Corrupted how?
>
> I'm sure the sky is the limit. It's a file like any other that's had its
> metadata removed from the directory no? Sounds like a bad idea in general.
> To each their own obviously.
>

I'm not really defending the practice :) I don't like it when processes
do it because disk usage isn't accountable via du and/or ls. But
processes have been doing it for ages.

In any case, the files are ok (and only as corruptible as any other file
is) because the only metadata that's removed is the name and the inode
number (that's all that's in a directory entry). The "important stuff"
like ownership, permissions, size, block lists, number of links, etc are
all stored in the inode itself.

When the number of links is 0 and there are no more processes using the
inode, then the blocks are deallocated. But up until that point, the
inode (and its data) are just like every other file, so its not any more
dangerous than any other file.


Brian


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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mark Krenz wrote:

> Its interesting to note that mysql seems to do this too:

Wow, sure enough.

So I wonder, how does this come into play with reserve blocks, quotas, etc?
I wonder how much stuff depends on intact metadata.

Thanks Mark, I'd never noticed this done on purpose before.

- -Dave
- --

| Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
|

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
| Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
| 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFGl6VyBIf6jlONJjIRAvlmAJ4kFCDduRmmz85uBNW9C49GrwADvACeIjVa
4bTaHH449x90Ld1b4oHR6d0=
=riba
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

I agree with Dave, this does sound like security theatre. However,
according to someone in #kernel on freenode, this technique is decades
old, so it predates a lot of security practices. It doesn't mean its a
good idea though. It could just be that sloppy programmers are not
closing their files before unlinking them.

I've never seen it before and it seemed to be cause of a problem so I
was ready to blame it. I'm still not sure.

I think from a system adminsitrators point of view, it seems like a
really stupid idea, but from a programmers point of view, it seems like
a great idea. Just another example of how those two mindsets really are
different.

Its interesting to note that mysql seems to do this too:

# lsof | grep deleted
[snip]
mysqld 31958 mysql 7u REG 9,0 0 15 /tmp/ibwZfdKe (deleted)
mysqld 31958 mysql 13u REG 9,0 0 16 /tmp/ibR0K4tQ (deleted)
mysqld 31959 mysql 6u REG 9,0 0 14 /tmp/ibuPNjWc (deleted)
mysqld 31959 mysql 7u REG 9,0 0 15 /tmp/ibwZfdKe (deleted)
mysqld 31959 mysql 13u REG 9,0 0 16 /tmp/ibR0K4tQ (deleted)

And you can also still access such deleted files by going into /proc/<pid>/fd

Mark

On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 03:33:31PM GMT, Brian Wheeler [bdwheele@indiana.edu] said the following:
> >
> > Sounds like tomfoolery to me. I'd say this qualifies as another act of
> > security theater. I wonder why they would go for this card trick over using
> > actual access control methods.
> >
>
> Well, access controls aside, it is useful for temporary data that you
> definitely want to go away after the process stops. And since multiple
> processes can inherit file descriptors, children of the process that
> opened it can all access it, but others cannot.
>
> > This also sounds like a great way to have their file corrupted.
> >
>
> Corrupted how? Its a file like any other, except the inode has a
> reference count of 0 (+ the open process(es) using it) so its not in any
> danger of being overwritten by other filesystem activity.
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> > - -Dave

--
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Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Brian Wheeler wrote:

>> Corrupted how?

I'm sure the sky is the limit. It's a file like any other that's had its
metadata removed from the directory no? Sounds like a bad idea in general.
To each their own obviously.

- -Dave

- --

| Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
|

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
| Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
| 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |

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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 11:29 -0400, Dave Monnier REN-ISAC wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Mark Krenz wrote:
> > I'm curious to get opinions on this. I'm working with some support
> > technicians for a software company that shall remain nameless for now.
> >
> > Anyways, a problem came up where temporary files are being written to
> > /tmp by a program and then showing up in the output of lsof as
> > (deleted). When talking with the support people about this, they said
> > that their method of controlling access to these files is to create
> > them, then unlink the file while the program is still running. This
> > makes the entry disappear from the directory listing. The program
> > should still be able to access the file when the filehandle is open, but
> > for the most part other programs cannot access it.
> >
> > What do you think about this?
> >
>
> Sounds like tomfoolery to me. I'd say this qualifies as another act of
> security theater. I wonder why they would go for this card trick over using
> actual access control methods.
>

Well, access controls aside, it is useful for temporary data that you
definitely want to go away after the process stops. And since multiple
processes can inherit file descriptors, children of the process that
opened it can all access it, but others cannot.

> This also sounds like a great way to have their file corrupted.
>

Corrupted how? Its a file like any other, except the inode has a
reference count of 0 (+ the open process(es) using it) so its not in any
danger of being overwritten by other filesystem activity.


Brian


> - -Dave
> - --
>
> | Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
> |

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
> | Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
> | 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |
>
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> =UxI6
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mark Krenz wrote:
> I'm curious to get opinions on this. I'm working with some support
> technicians for a software company that shall remain nameless for now.
>
> Anyways, a problem came up where temporary files are being written to
> /tmp by a program and then showing up in the output of lsof as
> (deleted). When talking with the support people about this, they said
> that their method of controlling access to these files is to create
> them, then unlink the file while the program is still running. This
> makes the entry disappear from the directory listing. The program
> should still be able to access the file when the filehandle is open, but
> for the most part other programs cannot access it.
>
> What do you think about this?
>

Sounds like tomfoolery to me. I'd say this qualifies as another act of
security theater. I wonder why they would go for this card trick over using
actual access control methods.

This also sounds like a great way to have their file corrupted.

- -Dave
- --

| Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
|

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
| Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
| 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |

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=UxI6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: [BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 15:13 +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> I'm curious to get opinions on this. I'm working with some support
> technicians for a software company that shall remain nameless for now.
>
> Anyways, a problem came up where temporary files are being written to
> /tmp by a program and then showing up in the output of lsof as
> (deleted). When talking with the support people about this, they said
> that their method of controlling access to these files is to create
> them, then unlink the file while the program is still running. This
> makes the entry disappear from the directory listing. The program
> should still be able to access the file when the filehandle is open, but
> for the most part other programs cannot access it.
>
> What do you think about this?
>

Its not unheard of, though it is a bit annoying if you're trying to
figure out who is sucking up all the disk. The advantage to do it this
way is there is no other way to easily open the file (There's an ioctl()
call using I_OPEN which might do it) and it is automatically dallocated
when the application shuts down (regardless if its a nice shutdown or
not).

Brian

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[BLUG] Unix conventions for controlling file access

I'm curious to get opinions on this. I'm working with some support
technicians for a software company that shall remain nameless for now.

Anyways, a problem came up where temporary files are being written to
/tmp by a program and then showing up in the output of lsof as
(deleted). When talking with the support people about this, they said
that their method of controlling access to these files is to create
them, then unlink the file while the program is still running. This
makes the entry disappear from the directory listing. The program
should still be able to access the file when the filehandle is open, but
for the most part other programs cannot access it.

What do you think about this?

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Tuesday, July 10, 2007

[BLUG] Meeting tonight

Look forward to the meeting tonight, see you all there. -Chris Walker
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting tonight?

Work calls so I will not be able to make it tonite...and I could use some
ideas for dressing up the new laptop.

Let me know how it goes.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:07:53 -0400, Steven Black wrote
> Ana:
>
> The presentation will go ahead regardless of whether there is a projector.
>
> Without a projector, people just get to hear me lecture. Don't bother
> taking notes, just sit back and know that all the good stuff will be
> available online. (*)
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> (*) People should still try to make it to the meeting, if possible.
>
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 01:29:19PM -0400, Pawsitive Results wrote:
> > Is the projector situation under control? I'm not sure I'll make it
> > tonight (although I plan to try!)
> >
> > Ana
> >
> > On 7/10/07, Steven Black < [1]blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Mark: We hope you can make it to the meeting.
> >
> > The meeting is at 7pm at the Monroe County Library in room 1B.
> >
> > I will be giving a presentation on "Easy and Effective Theming".
> > Specifically covering theming from startup on.
> >
> > Included will be:
> > * GRUB background images
> > * Usplash themes (*)
> > * GDM themes
> > * Screen savers
> > * System icons
> >
> > With the broad topic, I'll be covering a lot of ground. There will be a
> > link
> > on the website < [2]http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/> for this meeting
> > <[3]http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/wiki/32nd_meeting > which will
> > include a
> > link to a 5.3 page paper (plus references/links).
> >
> > (*) Usplash was created for Ubuntu. I know it is a little distribution
> > specific, but it is a popular distribution (and I use it). Included in
> > the paper are comments about the differences of Usplash to alternatives
> > like Bootsplash and Gensplash, as well as links to information to
> > create themes for those.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Steven Black
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > [4]BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > [5]http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
> > References
> >
> > Visible links
> > 1. mailto:blacks@indiana.edu
> > 2. http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> > 3. http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/wiki/32nd_meeting
> > 4. mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > 5. http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Scott Blaydes
pgp/gpg key avaliable upon request.

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Re: [BLUG] Meeting tonight?

Ana:

The presentation will go ahead regardless of whether there is a projector.

Without a projector, people just get to hear me lecture. Don't bother
taking notes, just sit back and know that all the good stuff will be
available online. (*)

Cheers,
Steven Black

(*) People should still try to make it to the meeting, if possible.

On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 01:29:19PM -0400, Pawsitive Results wrote:
> Is the projector situation under control? I'm not sure I'll make it
> tonight (although I plan to try!)
>
> Ana
>
> On 7/10/07, Steven Black < [1]blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> Mark: We hope you can make it to the meeting.
>
> The meeting is at 7pm at the Monroe County Library in room 1B.
>
> I will be giving a presentation on "Easy and Effective Theming".
> Specifically covering theming from startup on.
>
> Included will be:
> * GRUB background images
> * Usplash themes (*)
> * GDM themes
> * Screen savers
> * System icons
>
> With the broad topic, I'll be covering a lot of ground. There will be a
> link
> on the website < [2]http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/> for this meeting
> <[3]http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/wiki/32nd_meeting > which will
> include a
> link to a 5.3 page paper (plus references/links).
>
> (*) Usplash was created for Ubuntu. I know it is a little distribution
> specific, but it is a popular distribution (and I use it). Included in
> the paper are comments about the differences of Usplash to alternatives
> like Bootsplash and Gensplash, as well as links to information to
> create themes for those.
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> [4]BLUG@linuxfan.com
> [5]http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
> References
>
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:blacks@indiana.edu
> 2. http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> 3. http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/wiki/32nd_meeting
> 4. mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com
> 5. http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting tonight?

I'll be there tonight, just maybe a half hour late. I
have to play hooky a little bit between jobsites but
that's ok.


____________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: [BLUG] Meeting tonight?

Is the projector situation under control? I'm not sure I'll make it tonight (although I plan to try!)

Ana

On 7/10/07, Steven Black < blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
Mark: We hope you can make it to the meeting.

The meeting is at 7pm at the Monroe County Library in room 1B.

I will be giving a presentation on "Easy and Effective Theming".
Specifically covering theming from startup on.

Included will be:
    * GRUB background images
    * Usplash themes (*)
    * GDM themes
    * Screen savers
    * System icons

With the broad topic, I'll be covering a lot of ground. There will be a link
on the website < http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/> for this meeting
<http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/wiki/32nd_meeting > which will include a
link to a 5.3 page paper (plus references/links).

(*) Usplash was created for Ubuntu. I know it is a little distribution
specific, but it is a popular distribution (and I use it). Included in
the paper are comments about the differences of Usplash to alternatives
like Bootsplash and Gensplash, as well as links to information to
create themes for those.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] Meeting tonight?

Mark: We hope you can make it to the meeting.

The meeting is at 7pm at the Monroe County Library in room 1B.

I will be giving a presentation on "Easy and Effective Theming".
Specifically covering theming from startup on.

Included will be:
* GRUB background images
* Usplash themes (*)
* GDM themes
* Screen savers
* System icons

With the broad topic, I'll be covering a lot of ground. There will be a link
on the website <http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/> for this meeting
<http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/wiki/32nd_meeting> which will include a
link to a 5.3 page paper (plus references/links).

(*) Usplash was created for Ubuntu. I know it is a little distribution
specific, but it is a popular distribution (and I use it). Included in
the paper are comments about the differences of Usplash to alternatives
like Bootsplash and Gensplash, as well as links to information to
create themes for those.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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[BLUG] Meeting tonight?

New subscriber to the list. Old goof that just got tired of Windows.
Linux geek wannabe. CLI phobic, but able to follow directions. Wanna
keep learning. Looking to add to my resources, currently mostly Usenet
and Web forums.

Not sure if I could make it anyway, but there's been no announcement
concerning the monthly meeting since I signed up a week or so ago. Is it
on? Any specific topic or theme?

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318
74.129.249.62

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Re: [BLUG] spoofed process names?

Mark Krenz wrote:
> Wow, easier than I expected. Fortunately you can still find out what
> the actual process is called by grepping out the Name: line in /proc/[pid]/status
>

What if everything in there is actually spoofed too, or for that matter
our whole human existence is just one giant spoof, man?

What if this email is a spoof and Mark Krenz wrote this? Or, what if
this Mark Krenz spoofed email is also a spoof and I really wrote it?

Have I blown anybody's mind yet?


>
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2007 at 12:34:51PM GMT, Brian Wheeler [bdwheele@indiana.edu] said the following:
>> Nah, its "normal". Consider this perl program:
>>
>> #!/usr/bin/perl
>> $0="hello there!";
>> sleep 1000;
>>
>
>


--
Joe Auty
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Re: [BLUG] spoofed process names?

Cool... note that this modifies the command line string, not the actual program name.   Depending on the arguments you pass to ps you can still see the actual program name.  The "f" in "ps -ef" causes it to display the command line instead of the program name.

So "ps" looks like this:

25660 pts/1    00:00:00 perl

and "ps -ef" looks like this:

ajpoland 25660 25574  0 08:43 pts/1    00:00:00 hello there!


Andrew


On Jul 10, 2007, at 8:34 AM, Brian Wheeler wrote:

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 11:55 +0000, ben lipkowitz wrote:
recently i was poking around on a shared mainframe and saw that a user was 
running a rather interesting process:

nullogic q8 - Mon06PM 11:57 Hey, I dont look at you...

where normally it would look something like this:
fenn     rc - Mon07PM     0 (pine)

any ideas on how this might have been accomplished?
hint: sometimes i can get "w" to say "... (zsh)" at the end.
this is a NetBSD system btw

curiouser and curouser


Nah, its "normal".  Consider this perl program:

#!/usr/bin/perl
$0="hello there!";
sleep 1000;

run it and then do a ps -ef:

bdwheele 31578 31505  0 08:31 pts/6    00:00:00 hello there!

From the perlvar manpage, there's a description of what's going on:

       $PROGRAM_NAME
       $0      Contains the name of the program being executed.

               On some (read: not all) operating systems assigning to $0 modi-
               fies the argument area that the "ps" program sees.  On some
               platforms you may have to use special "ps" options or a differ-
               ent "ps" to see the changes.  Modifying the $0 is more useful
               as a way of indicating the current program state than it is for
               hiding the program you're running.  (Mnemonic: same as sh and
               ksh.)

               Note that there are platform specific limitations on the maxi-
               mum length of $0.  In the most extreme case it may be limited
               to the space occupied by the original $0.

               In some platforms there may be arbitrary amount of padding, for
               example space characters, after the modified name as shown by
               "ps".  In some platforms this padding may extend all the way to
               the original length of the argument area, no matter what you do
               (this is the case for example with Linux 2.2).

               Note for BSD users: setting $0 does not completely remove
               "perl" from the ps(1) output.  For example, setting $0 to "foo-
               bar" may result in "perl: foobar (perl)" (whether both the
               "perl: " prefix and the " (perl)" suffix are shown depends on
               your exact BSD variant and version).  This is an operating sys-
               tem feature, Perl cannot help it.

               In multithreaded scripts Perl coordinates the threads so that
               any thread may modify its copy of the $0 and the change becomes
               visible to ps(1) (assuming the operating system plays along).
               Note that the view of $0 the other threads have will not change
               since they have their own copies of it.




Brian



       /\-/\
( o.o )<
  _____>   <________fenn_____
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Indiana University

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