Re: [BLUG] Hardy Heron: the good?

On Monday 28 April 2008 10:57:52 am Steven Black wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:27:22AM -0400, Dabrowski, Andrew J wrote:
> > Has anyone noticed any nontrivial improvements in 8.04 over 7.10?
>
> First of all, 8.04 will be supported significantly longer than 7.10. If
> you want to be a slow updater, you should stick to LTS releases. This
> means migrating to an LTS release as soon as you can safely do it and
> sitting there until the next LTS release. (They occur every 2 years, so
> it is a shorter wait than most distributions, even then.)
>
> This is why I've been using 6.06 LTS on my desktop at work. I need it to
> work, and can't afford problems with upgrade issues.
>
> If you stick to 7.10, you'll be stuck when 8.10 is released. You will
> *need* to perform a full from-scratch update. Ubuntu only offers upgrades
> from the immediately previous release, except for LTS releases which also
> have clean upgrades from the previous LTS release.
>
> There are some interesting tools now available. Some new games. Newer
> versions of existing things. I'm looking forward to trying out Falcon, a
> Debian package repository tool. I've mentioned that etckeeper is really
> great. It uses Xorg 7.3, which does add some new things.
>
> What is a trivial improvement? That is all relative. What is important
> to you? Fancy GUI crap? There's more better 3D stuff in Hardy. Games?
> There's some new games in Hardy. Tools? There are some interesting new
> tools. Web browsing? Firefox 3 does it better -- supposed to be faster,
> too.
>
> Do you consider all prepacked binaries to be "trivial improvements" as
> you're perfectly content to build and install anything from scratch?
> (Personally, I'm competent to build and install things from scratch,
> I just consider it a waste of time, so I'm not content doing it.) If
> this is your opinion, then except for the support, they are all trivial
> improvements.
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Don't forget that kubuntu 804 isn't a lts release
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Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

Steven Black wrote:
>
> Being a KDE fan, you may want to try one of the Kubuntu-KDE4 live CDs,
> just to get a taste of what is to come in KDE4.

Already have. Let's just say I'll need some convincing. :-)

> If MEPIS starts following the Debian time-lines, you may get tired of
> waiting for the next release. Debian has this issue in part because
> few Debian users actually *use* the stable branch. This was the major
> reason I started looking at other distributions, back before I settled
> on Kubuntu.

MEPIS has always taken a rap for being "outdated". The MEPIS 7 repos do
offer some apps that have been updated from what are available in Debian
stable. Open Office is one that comes to mind.

Personally, I don't care about latest and greatest. When I was running
Windows, I didn't move from W98SE until late in the game, and even then
I only moved "up" to W2K as my working environment. I'll go along with
Warren's emphasis on stability and usability over "new and improved".

Bringing it back to the original subject, I have installed both Ubuntu
and Kubuntu (KDE3) Hardy. Both installs were uneventful, and the few
minor post-install configurations I've done went fine. I still don't
like Gnome, and I still find the Kubuntu implementation of KDE to be
less than appealing.

But my observations don't mean much. I can barely drive the thing.

OTOH, if desktop Linux is going to continue making appreciable inroads,
it's people like me that are going to have to use it.

--
Mark Warner
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Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:11:51PM -0400, Mark Warner wrote:
> Take this for what it's worth, from a barely competent desktop user that
> doesn't know beans about back end/server stuff:

Every Linux user started out there once. When I started, I knew a
handful of VI commands, ls, man, cd and really very little else. I
started out with a book and bundled Slackware CD.

I don't think I had even tried out Debian until I had ordered
a 4 CD bundle from Yggdrasil Computing. That was a great company
when the 'net was young and bandwidth was limited to dial-up for
most folks.

> Ubuntu is a fine distro, and Hardy is a fine version, but it's not my
> cup of tea. For me, it's too "Windowsy" at the level of the stock GUI.
> Seems like it gets in the way of doing things the way I'd like, at least
> in it's default configuration. That very well may be more of a Gnome
> thing than an Ubuntu thing. I admit to being partial to KDE. And while
> Kubuntu is more to my liking, it just doesn't turn my crank (how's that
> for an empirical assessment?).

I understand your distaste for GNOME. I was working at an OS company
that had an entire fully functional internet-driven operating system
in 16 MB when the GNOME folks were partying because one of their
libraries just hit the 16M mark. I had trouble using a product that
would celebrate bloat.

Kubuntu is the official KDE-based edition of Ubuntu. After finally
getting tired of things not working as expected in GNOME, I went back to
KDE. (I was using KDE before I started work at my current employer. I
had tried moving to GNOME as it was more popular around my workplace.)

Being a KDE fan, you may want to try one of the Kubuntu-KDE4 live CDs,
just to get a taste of what is to come in KDE4.

If MEPIS starts following the Debian time-lines, you may get tired of
waiting for the next release. Debian has this issue in part because
few Debian users actually *use* the stable branch. This was the major
reason I started looking at other distributions, back before I settled
on Kubuntu.

With regards to just changing the look of a KDE system, a lot can be
said for a nice set of custom icons. (The Oxygen set included with KDE4
look nice, too.) I'm glad KDE4 is bringing improved SVG support, as that
makes many of the icons much easier to have with flexable sizing. It
also makes for some nice flexably-sized background images.

> MEPIS 7 has been out for some time, and is now sitting atop a Debian
> Etch/stable code base. Other than installing and tweaking a few
> packages, the transition will entail nothing more than installing,
> updating, editing fstab to point to my /home, and making it my default
> boot in menu.lst -- a forty minute operation at most. But that's not
> gonna happen for a while -- I don't need the latest and greatest, and my
> current OS ain't broke and doesn't need fixin'.

Having it sit atop a Debian base gives you access to a lot of packages.

If you really want to see some things that don't look like Windows,
there are a number of neat light-weight window managers available at
this point. As they're just Window Managers, and perhaps a supporting
application or two, you can have these installed along-side KDE with no
problems. (They take up some disc space, but not much.) Just select a
different session when you log in.

I'm really a much better fit for one of the lighter-weight window
managers. Frankly, I'm surprised I bother using X most of the time. I
spend all my spare time in a large font Xterm with screen running.

At some point, one of my projects is to write a window manager of my
own. I have an idea I'd like to play with with regards to it... Of
course, one of my other projects is to write a terminal emulator of my
own... and I'm more likely to finish the terminal emulator first.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

Simón Ruiz wrote:

> If I don't do that sort of fiddling, my upgrades work. Since I do,
> though, I avoid the hassle of even trying.
>
> Plus, as Mark said, it's a good opportunity for personal computing
> habit reflection and an excellent chance to let go of some of the
> garbage I know I accumulate on my hard disks.

Take this for what it's worth, from a barely competent desktop user that
doesn't know beans about back end/server stuff:

Ubuntu is a fine distro, and Hardy is a fine version, but it's not my
cup of tea. For me, it's too "Windowsy" at the level of the stock GUI.
Seems like it gets in the way of doing things the way I'd like, at least
in it's default configuration. That very well may be more of a Gnome
thing than an Ubuntu thing. I admit to being partial to KDE. And while
Kubuntu is more to my liking, it just doesn't turn my crank (how's that
for an empirical assessment?).

The last distro that really caught my fancy and got me excited about
using Linux (and what finally became my default working environment) was
SimplyMEPIS v6.5, a KDE implementation of Ubuntu Dapper. Warren Woodford
and I seem to be on the same wavelength -- I just felt like I'd found a
home there.

MEPIS 7 has been out for some time, and is now sitting atop a Debian
Etch/stable code base. Other than installing and tweaking a few
packages, the transition will entail nothing more than installing,
updating, editing fstab to point to my /home, and making it my default
boot in menu.lst -- a forty minute operation at most. But that's not
gonna happen for a while -- I don't need the latest and greatest, and my
current OS ain't broke and doesn't need fixin'.

--
Mark Warner
SimplyMEPIS Linux v6.5
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] Hardy Heron: the good?

I really like the offer to save your tabs for you to come back to next
time. The Get Ubuntu Extensions link in the Add-ons Manager is also a
nice touch.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 07:53:20AM -0500, Christopher Walker wrote:
> As an improvement over Firefox 2, Firefox 3 correctly breaks lines in
> a webpage containing Tibetan script. This is important those
> communities that depend on a ready-to-go system localized in Tibetan
> (most notably in Bhutan).
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Dabrowski, Andrew J wrote:
> >Has anyone noticed any nontrivial improvements in 8.04 over 7.10?
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >BLUG mailing list
> >BLUG@linuxfan.com
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
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Re: [BLUG] Hardy Heron: the good?

Among the list of new features:

http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/hardy/beta

The following interests me, although I have yet to play with it since
I've been repairing things that broke (and I'm finally done that :)

> KVM is now officially maintained within the Ubuntu kernel.
>
> libvirt and virt-manager have been integrated in Ubuntu. They allow
> for easy guest creation and basic management of virtual machines out
> of the box. Virt-manager can be used to administer guests on a
> remote server.
>
> The kernel also includes virtio, greatly improving I/O performance
> in guests.

Has anybody played with this stuff?

On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Steven Black wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:27:22AM -0400, Dabrowski, Andrew J wrote:
>> Has anyone noticed any nontrivial improvements in 8.04 over 7.10?
>
> First of all, 8.04 will be supported significantly longer than 7.10.
> If
> you want to be a slow updater, you should stick to LTS releases. This
> means migrating to an LTS release as soon as you can safely do it and
> sitting there until the next LTS release. (They occur every 2 years,
> so
> it is a shorter wait than most distributions, even then.)
>
> This is why I've been using 6.06 LTS on my desktop at work. I need
> it to
> work, and can't afford problems with upgrade issues.
>
> If you stick to 7.10, you'll be stuck when 8.10 is released. You will
> *need* to perform a full from-scratch update. Ubuntu only offers
> upgrades
> from the immediately previous release, except for LTS releases which
> also
> have clean upgrades from the previous LTS release.
>
> There are some interesting tools now available. Some new games. Newer
> versions of existing things. I'm looking forward to trying out
> Falcon, a
> Debian package repository tool. I've mentioned that etckeeper is
> really
> great. It uses Xorg 7.3, which does add some new things.
>
> What is a trivial improvement? That is all relative. What is important
> to you? Fancy GUI crap? There's more better 3D stuff in Hardy. Games?
> There's some new games in Hardy. Tools? There are some interesting new
> tools. Web browsing? Firefox 3 does it better -- supposed to be
> faster,
> too.
>
> Do you consider all prepacked binaries to be "trivial improvements" as
> you're perfectly content to build and install anything from scratch?
> (Personally, I'm competent to build and install things from scratch,
> I just consider it a waste of time, so I'm not content doing it.) If
> this is your opinion, then except for the support, they are all
> trivial
> improvements.
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] Hardy Heron: the good?

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 08:27:22AM -0400, Dabrowski, Andrew J wrote:
> Has anyone noticed any nontrivial improvements in 8.04 over 7.10?

First of all, 8.04 will be supported significantly longer than 7.10. If
you want to be a slow updater, you should stick to LTS releases. This
means migrating to an LTS release as soon as you can safely do it and
sitting there until the next LTS release. (They occur every 2 years, so
it is a shorter wait than most distributions, even then.)

This is why I've been using 6.06 LTS on my desktop at work. I need it to
work, and can't afford problems with upgrade issues.

If you stick to 7.10, you'll be stuck when 8.10 is released. You will
*need* to perform a full from-scratch update. Ubuntu only offers upgrades
from the immediately previous release, except for LTS releases which also
have clean upgrades from the previous LTS release.

There are some interesting tools now available. Some new games. Newer
versions of existing things. I'm looking forward to trying out Falcon, a
Debian package repository tool. I've mentioned that etckeeper is really
great. It uses Xorg 7.3, which does add some new things.

What is a trivial improvement? That is all relative. What is important
to you? Fancy GUI crap? There's more better 3D stuff in Hardy. Games?
There's some new games in Hardy. Tools? There are some interesting new
tools. Web browsing? Firefox 3 does it better -- supposed to be faster,
too.

Do you consider all prepacked binaries to be "trivial improvements" as
you're perfectly content to build and install anything from scratch?
(Personally, I'm competent to build and install things from scratch,
I just consider it a waste of time, so I'm not content doing it.) If
this is your opinion, then except for the support, they are all trivial
improvements.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

I've been performing network upgrades of Debian since 1996-97 or so.
With Debian I never had the sorts of problems I've run in to with some
of my Ubuntu upgrades.

But then, the Debian upgrades generally worked without helper scripts,
and they didn't do some of the major key changes that Ubuntu has done
in the past. I went from a history where (once they developed APT)
manual changes to /etc/apt/sources.list followed by a dist-upgrade
actually worked reliably for distribution upgrades. (It was always
"update distribution tag, then perform upgrade" -- even before APT.)
This bit me hard when Ubuntu stopped using init in the 6.06 -> 6.10
upgrade.

I had trouble in places with the 7.04 -> 7.10 upgrade, (I don't recall
what it was, I just remember it didn't all go completely smoothly), and
I've not fully implemented the 7.10 -> 8.04 upgrade. So far, the one
system I did upgrade worked as expected. I was only doing one system
during the beta. Now it is just a matter of upgrading them when I have
the time.

With my Ubuntu systems, unless I have truly fat bandwith, (like
work-bandwidth, not home cable-modem bandwidth), I've taken to using
the Alternate CD to perform a CD-based upgrade. Having had problems in
the past, it provides an added level of protection. (It is a tool that
can be leveraged to revive a system that you might otherwise think of
reinstalling.)

The big excitement for me will be my LTS upgrade. My desktop is a
6.06 LTS system, which will be upgraded to 8.04 LTS. I'm just holding
out long enough to verify VMware Workstation will work as expected.

With my history, you might think I would agree with the folks that are
all about total reinstallation for distribution upgrades. I, however,
hate performing full reinstallations. I consider reinstallation a sign
of a poorly designed or poorly administered system. (Like Windows, or
RedHat where such policies are the norm.)

I avoid recompiling anything without very explicit need. When I do, I
try to make sure it gets a reasonable '.deb' file so package management
doesn't get confused. The only time I touch GNU Stow (which I do highly
recommend -- it is a great product) is when maintaining my aged Solaris
machine, or (at times) when dealing with third-party software.

I've needed to resort to a full reinstallation of a Debian-derived
system once in the 10+ years I've been using them. In that case, it was
my fault for (1) not reading the installation notes, and (2) failing
to realize the CD-Rom drive was defective earlier. I knew it had CDDA
issues, but I had been using it successfully -- or so I thought -- so I
thought it was *just* CDDA issues. I should've performed a 'media check'
before installing.

Yes, that's right. The one time I performed a full reinstallation
after a botched upgrade of a Debian-derived system, I had CD-Rom drive
hardware issues. The only other times I performed a full reinstallation
instead of a straight upgrade was to make radical partition table
changes. (Most of my minor partition table changes have occured without
a full reinstallation. -- Even before you could dynamically resize ext2
partitions.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:18:00PM -0400, Joe Auty wrote:
> I'm wondering if any of you have had the problems I've had in a
> network update to Hardy:
>
>
> 1) My Nvidia Geforce 8500 GT cannot be properly probed to determine
> available resolutions, I'm stuck at 640x480 w. the proprietary Nvidia
> driver. Several other users have had this same problem, it's an open
> bug on Launchpad. For now, I'm stuck with the open source driver,
> where I get my full screen resolution, but no 3D acceleration.
>
> 2) Hardy completely messed up my lirc config. Even after recompiling
> the modules (which was necessary), I'm still having problems that
> didn't exist in Gutsy with the lirc_pvr150 kernel module. For now, I'm
> remote-less.
>
> 3) Synergy now needs to be run as root
>
>
>
>
> I'm thinking about downgrading back to Gutsy, but I'm kind of afraid
> to do that... I may have to wipe/reinstall. I guess next time I
> shouldn't count on these upgrades going as smoothly as my upgrade from
> Fiesty to Gutsy did.
>
> Anybody else having these sorts of difficulties?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------
> Joe Auty
> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
> http://www.netmusician.org
> joe@netmusician.org
>
>
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Re: [BLUG] Party Hardy!

The LCD thing happens periodically to a number of laptops.

Typically in the boot help prompts (F2 - F6 or so) they will actually
mention a VGA mode number to try if you're having display issues with
your laptop. I've periodically needed to use it, but I've never needed
to remember any of the mode numbers.

I have just the opposite problem with my ThinkPad T60p (with the
optional FireGL). The CD installer's usplash looks perfect. However
anytime I try to use usplash once the system is running, the image never
comes out right. Presumably, if I knew the setting used in the installer
I could get it to work, but I've not bothered to research it. (This
isn't a new problem with this laptop.) Once X kicks in it is good, so I
tend to just disable usplash on it.

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 08:30:04PM -0400, Lord Drachenblut wrote:
> This was on KDE3 and I think it happened, can't date for sure, on the last set
> of patches to come out right as hardy was going from beta to release. It was
> something minor and the only problem I ran into. Also I should say this was
> a clean install not a upgrade. All in all I was very happy with everything.
> One other minor problem I want to throw out there to see if anyone else ran
> into is if anyone used the alternative installer and had "weird issues" with
> the display during install. The best way I can describe it is the
> alternative installer didn't detect my laptops lcd properly and was very
> fuzzy. but post install it all worked fine.
>
> Cheers

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Re: [BLUG] Hardy Heron: the good?

As an improvement over Firefox 2, Firefox 3 correctly breaks lines in
a webpage containing Tibetan script. This is important those
communities that depend on a ready-to-go system localized in Tibetan
(most notably in Bhutan).

Chris

On Apr 28, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Dabrowski, Andrew J wrote:
> Has anyone noticed any nontrivial improvements in 8.04 over 7.10?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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[BLUG] Hardy Heron: the good?

Has anyone noticed any nontrivial improvements in 8.04 over 7.10?

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Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

On Mon, 2008-04-28 at 02:41 +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 02:18:00AM GMT, Joe Auty [joe@netmusician.org] said the following:
> >
> > 3) Synergy now needs to be run as root
>
> That's very strange and not good.
>
> > I'm thinking about downgrading back to Gutsy, but I'm kind of afraid
> > to do that... I may have to wipe/reinstall. I guess next time I
> > shouldn't count on these upgrades going as smoothly as my upgrade from
> > Fiesty to Gutsy did.
>
> I rarely do an "upgrade". I usually wipe and reinstall. Its a good
> oppurtunity for me to clean things up like my home directory, discover
> new software, drop unused software and avoid these wierd problems that
> happen when you upgrade your operating system. It really is not a Linux
> thing, its an OS thing. Windows, Linux, Mac.. same difference. Don't
> upgrade. Reinstall. Except with Windows you also reinstall it to fix
> most problems.
>
>

Cleaning up is for the weak!

Actually, I have /home on a separate filesystem so I can upgrade or
clean install without losing my settings and data.

Brian

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Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

I feel the same way about the clean install,  but if I'm gonna wipe anyway generally I back up and let it upgrade anyway before the wipe (just to see if it works).  It gives me a chance to warn people off of the upgrade, or say "give it a shot".

For instance, my Feisty ---> Gutsy upgrade went well, as did a recent upgrade from OSX 10.4 ---> 10.5.  I still wiped both of those installs out after I did them, though.  :)

Dave Cooley dcooley@kiva.net

Simón Ruiz wrote:

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:   

  I rarely do an "upgrade". I usually wipe and reinstall.  Its a good  oppurtunity for me to clean things up like my home directory, discover  new software, drop unused software and avoid these wierd problems that  happen when you upgrade your operating system. It really is not a Linux  thing, its an OS thing.  Windows, Linux, Mac.. same difference.  Don't  upgrade.  Reinstall.  Except with Windows you also reinstall it to fix  most problems.     

 Yeah, it's like an opportunity to re-evaluate all the junk you put on your system and whether you even want it anymore.  Also, if you're anything like me, you tend to fiddle with the more esoteric configurations and settings, you tend to want software from outside of the official repos so you add unofficial repos to your sources and/or compile/recompile stuff from source and generally do the sorts of things that the people preparing the "upgrade" scripts can't reasonably be expected to foresee having to deal with.  If I don't do that sort of fiddling, my upgrades work. Since I do, though, I avoid the hassle of even trying.  Plus, as Mark said, it's a good opportunity for personal computing habit reflection and an excellent chance to let go of some of the garbage I know I accumulate on my hard disks.    

 --  Mark Krenz  Bloomington Linux Users Group  http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/     

 Simón  _______________________________________________ BLUG mailing list BLUG@linuxfan.com http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug   

Re: [BLUG] thoroughly unimpressed with Hardy

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> I rarely do an "upgrade". I usually wipe and reinstall. Its a good
> oppurtunity for me to clean things up like my home directory, discover
> new software, drop unused software and avoid these wierd problems that
> happen when you upgrade your operating system. It really is not a Linux
> thing, its an OS thing. Windows, Linux, Mac.. same difference. Don't
> upgrade. Reinstall. Except with Windows you also reinstall it to fix
> most problems.

Yeah, it's like an opportunity to re-evaluate all the junk you put on
your system and whether you even want it anymore.

Also, if you're anything like me, you tend to fiddle with the more
esoteric configurations and settings, you tend to want software from
outside of the official repos so you add unofficial repos to your
sources and/or compile/recompile stuff from source and generally do
the sorts of things that the people preparing the "upgrade" scripts
can't reasonably be expected to foresee having to deal with.

If I don't do that sort of fiddling, my upgrades work. Since I do,
though, I avoid the hassle of even trying.

Plus, as Mark said, it's a good opportunity for personal computing
habit reflection and an excellent chance to let go of some of the
garbage I know I accumulate on my hard disks.

> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
>

http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/

Simón

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