Saturday, September 29, 2007

Re: [BLUG] FREE: NexT Systems

Mine as well, I'd kill for a NeXT cube or alpha. I
have a Kaypro ][ though :D


--- Matt Standish <mstandish@gmail.com> wrote:

> damn my slowness.... :)
>
> On 9/28/07, Dave Monnier REN-ISAC
> <dmonnier@ren-isac.net> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > WOW.. that was fast.
> >
> > Someone has arranged to pick up the gear already.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > - -Dave
> >
> > - --
> >
> > | Dave Monnier -
> dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
> > |
> http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
> > | Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC
> http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
> > | 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630,
> ren-isac@ren-isac.net |
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> >
> >
>
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> > IELo1LDwOsdpBGOJY95R1BA=
> > =1kBy
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> >
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
>
> --
> Matt Standish
> MSN Messenger: mps_@hotmail.com
> Yahoo Messenger: mattstandish@yahoo.com
> Google Talk: mstandish
> _______________________________________________
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>


____________________________________________________________________________________
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Friday, September 28, 2007

Re: [BLUG] FREE: NexT Systems

damn my slowness.... :)

On 9/28/07, Dave Monnier REN-ISAC <dmonnier@ren-isac.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> WOW.. that was fast.
>
> Someone has arranged to pick up the gear already.
>
> Thanks!
> - -Dave
>
> - --
>
> | Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
> |

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
> | Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
> | 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
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> IELo1LDwOsdpBGOJY95R1BA=
> =1kBy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>


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Yahoo Messenger: mattstandish@yahoo.com
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Re: [BLUG] FREE: NexT Systems

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

WOW.. that was fast.

Someone has arranged to pick up the gear already.

Thanks!
- -Dave

- --

| Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
|

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
| Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
| 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |

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IELo1LDwOsdpBGOJY95R1BA=
=1kBy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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[BLUG] FREE: NexT Systems

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sorry if this is too far off topic for folks, I don't know of a better
source for geeks in Bloomington though.

Any collectors on the list? Contact me off-list if interested.

Due to an out of state move I've got the following vintage UNIX systems
available immediately.

NexT CUBE w/ keyboard and dual B/W displays
NexTstation (slab) w/ keyboard and mouse and dual color displays

Missing from the gear: OS Media (however, the daring should be able to get
NetBSD running on it).

In the coming days I'll also have a DEC Multia (alpha) and Kaypro 4 (CP/M)
to give away.

Pics attached.. dusty but still cool..


This is some great collectible gear. I don't care what you do with it
(ebay, whatever..) just come get it and it's yours. Makes for a great
anniversary present, birthday, etc !

Thanks!
- -Dave

- --

| Dave Monnier - dmonnier@ren-isac.net |
|

http://nicholas.ren-isac.net/dmonnier/

|
| Principal Security Engineer, REN-ISAC http://www.ren-isac.net/ |
| 24x7 Watch Desk: +1(317)278-6630, ren-isac@ren-isac.net |

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Thursday, September 27, 2007

[BLUG] Re: [ubuntu-us-in] Take me out to the LinuxFest!

For those who are here tomorrow, I'll be in a white Ubuntu Indiana polo shirt.

For those who are here on Saturday, I'll be in a navy blue Ubuntu
Indiana T-shirt.

Look me up!

Simón

P.S. For those who are here on Saturday, remember that the Hoosier
LoCo is meeting in the Silicon Mechanics room at the beginning of
lunch. Steven Stalcup will be finishing up his "Ubuntu for Beginners"
presentation at that time, and he's graciously offered to join us for
lunch and chat with us a bit about the approval process we're looking
to go through.

P.P.S. Even if you're not part of the Ubuntu LoCo Team, you're invited
to join your fellow Hoosiers at that time in the breaking of bread and
geeky chatter.

On 9/27/07, Michael Schultheiss <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
> Nate Dobbs wrote:
> > I've arrived as well, can't wait for tomorrow!
>
> Too bad I have to work tomorrow. I'll see you guys on Saturday though
> :)
>
> --
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> Ubuntu-us-in@lists.ubuntu.com
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>

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[BLUG] Take me out to the LinuxFest!

Well, we're taking off.

See you all in Columbus!

Simón

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Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

>> How do you personally handle needing to install software with custom
>> command line options in something like Redhat?
>
> Use "apt-get source <package>".

don't forget to `apt-get build-dep <package>` which automatically gets
everything you need to compile said source package. yeah baby!
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Monday, September 17, 2007

Re: [BLUG] LPI certs (was: C/C++)

On 9/17/07, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> This shouldn't be that surprising. Red Hat was one of the first
> Linux distributions to push for certification exams, and IIRC the
> first Linux-related certs were all Red Hat Linux certs.

Not surprising, I was just balancing Michael's comment about his hat
of being a Debian developer. ;-)

The LPI exam requires a relatively broad basic understanding of Linux
in it's many flavors. Though I have been "brought up", so to speak, on
Debian, and specifically Debian's child Ubuntu, the LPI exam won't let
me get away with claiming a familiarity with "Linux" unless I
demonstrate a solid basic understanding of how to work with Red Hat
and it's children as well.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 12:46:32PM -0400, Joe Auty wrote:
> Steven,
>
> How do you personally handle needing to install software with custom
> command line options in something like Redhat?

I don't know about RedHat. I do know about Debian.

In Debian there are a couple of options. My perferred option would probably
be:

Use "apt-get source <package>". Edit debian/control to change the name
of the package. Set a "Provides:" line to the original name of the package.
(Any package depending on the original package will be happy with this one.)
Set a "Conflicts:" line to the name of the original package. (You can not
have both packages installed at once.)

Then you can make configure-time changes in debian/rules. (Search for
"configure". It will either be in a "configure" section, or in the "build"
section.)

You may want to create a patch file so you can apply this change in the
future, when a new version is released.

Then it is a matter of creating the new package. I usually just use
"fakeroot ./debian/rules binary" but then I don't usually worry about
creating source packages.

Note: This is based upon my believing that you wanted to use custom
command-line options to configure the product. If you're talking about
run-time options, then for services, they would typically be handled with
a configuration file in /etc/default which is referenced by the init
script located in /etc/init.d.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 12:41:13PM -0400, Gaddis, Jeremy L. wrote:
> Steven Black wrote:
> > Personally, I think source-based distributions are a step
> > backward. [...]
>
> I don't think I could make a blanket statement like that. If we were
> talking about Slackware, yes, I'd say it's a step backwards. I wouldn't
> say the same for Gentoo, however (or even FreeBSD).

You are correct. On a machine with plenty of resources, with a full source
tree in hand and decent package management source-based solutions could be
better than a binary-based solution.

Without decent package management, a source-based solution is just total
crap (except for the learning experience). I think I've seen too many bad
binary package management systems to expect much from a package management
system for a source-based solution. I know I've done too much maintenance
on that old Solaris box with GNU Stow to think a source-based solution would
be more fun than a binary one.

Also, unless you have a specific hardware upgrade path, and the financial
resources to make that hardware upgrade path a reality, any source-based
solution runs the risk of running out of system resources to keep it a
viable alternative to its binary competition. You can find yourself in a
state where due to increased customer demand you no longer have the hardware
resources you once had and then big compiles become more and more noticable
to your end users.

In any sort of constrained resource environment, binary packages can be
a great help. I tend treat all my systems like they'll be constrained
resource environments before I'm through with them. This has certainly
always been the case for my home machines.

> I have been (was) a fan of Debian for years. The Debian Project seems
> to be falling apart, however, due to all the politics. With Debian you
> have your choice of rock-solid software that's a few years old, or
> bleeding-edge software that can potentially (and will, eventually) hose
> your system.

Yes, this is the same reason I started looking at alternatives to
Debian several years back.

I must admit I've not used Red Hat in 10+ years. (Back before RPMs
had dependancy support, and the recommended upgrade procedure was
to -- at best -- boot to a CD to upgrade, or at worst to backup
your data and install from scratch. This was when after an RPM
install you always had to manually configure every package as there
was no easy install time configuration for anything. This was back
when Red Hat arbitrarily changed names and install paths of installed
compontents between revisions while seemingly trying to avoid growing
standards.) I know RHEL is very popular. My distaste for them isn't
something that has any sort of current foundation, and may well not
even have any sort of valid foundation at this time.

It is counter-productive to the Debian community to run Debian
sid/unstable. You can do it if you're an active Debian developer,
but any random user that does it only slows progress. The
overwhelming number of people who do it are hurting the product,
and are responsible for the slow progress toward new stable
releases.

That being said, I like to use up-to-date software and try out new
software features like the next person. I like software to be updated
regularly. I like software to be stable, even if I don't get the
latest software right when it comes out.

I've been very happy with Ubuntu. The Debian framework has a history
of smooth, painless upgrades. Ubuntu has releases regularly, so I get
new software when it is ready, even if it isn't immediately after it
is released. The Ubuntu folks are focused on the enterprise market,
and features specially suited for that market will only increase as
time goes on. (For instance, they're working on a product to compete
with RHN.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] LPI exams (was C++)

On 9/17/07, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 02:13:01PM -0400, Simón Ruiz wrote:
> > I'm going through O'Reilly's "LPI Linux Ceritification in a nutshell"
> > and, indeed, man pages. I'll also be taking the "LPI Cram Session"
> > class at the "Ohio LinuxFest University" two days before the exam.
>
> Perhaps I'll see you at the Ohio LinuxFest.

Heck yeah!

I'll be one of the people walking around in an "Ubuntu Indiana Local
Community" T-shirt <http://www.cafepress.com/inloco - thanks to Ana
and Michael>. I've chopped off the long hair, though, so don't be
looking for a ponytail ;-).

We [the Ubuntu Indiana LoCo Team that is] are meeting up for lunch,
and you're welcome to join us. All of you who are going are.

I'm particularly looking forward to maddog's presentation, "Computing
Off the Grid" though why he isn't a keynote speaker is beyond me. Poor
people speaking opposite him will probably have tiny audiences—though
that isn't necessarily a bad thing for them I suppose...and that
Python one that's going on opposite him really piqued my interest,
too...too bad.

> With regards to the LPI, I don't know if most folks are aware, but
> the Ubuntu certification leans heavily upon the LPI exams. Basically,
> it is just one final Ubuntu-specific exam after taking the two LPI
> exams.

Yeah, I read that much on the LPI and Ubuntu pages. I'll probably look
at that after I get my level ones out of the way—they should be cake
after that, I'm guessing, since I actually use Ubuntu on a daily basis
both at work and at home.

> I've not taken the LPI exams (yet). However, I have taken the MySQL
> exams.
>
> While I also had a knack for standardized tests in school, my
> experience of certification exams is that well, they're virtually
> nothing like school exams. Expect no stupid clearly wrong answers.
> Expect most of the questions to have only almost-correct answers.
> Expect more questions which explicitly have more than one correct
> answer. ("Which of the following are correct?" Answers are attached
> to checkboxes, not a radio buttons.)

Cool, well, I appreciate the heads up. I'll take all the
intelligence/advice I can get.

> Cheers,
> Steven Black

Cheers,
Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Kino uses vi movement keys

Also, Gmail uses vi keys, at least for going up and down the list of
e-mail j == down and k == up.

I don't know much else on Gmail except for o == open, # == delete, x
== checkbox, y == archive, r == reply, a == reply all and I don't know
whether they try to match stuff up with vi where possible.

It's much faster to use the keyboard shortcuts in Gmail than mousing
everywhere...as is typical of keyboard shortcuts...

Simón

On 9/16/07, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>
> One thing I forgot about and forgot to mention during my presentation
> is that Kino actually uses vi movement keys and commands for editing.
> So h and l take you back and forth frame by frame and stuff like Ctrl+j
> will split a scene at the current frame and Shift Ctrl j joins then back
> together. So this is another reason why Kino was related to vi and also
> a good reason to learn the vi keys.
>
>

http://www.kinodv.org/docbook/
>
> So if you wanted to, you could do almost all of your video editing
> with just your keyboard.
>
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oVeBIrJMPg
>
>
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
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>


--
-Simón A. Ruiz

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Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steven,

How do you personally handle needing to install software with custom
command line options in something like Redhat?


Steven Black wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 12:20:22AM -0400, Joe Auty wrote:
>> Which sort of distribution do you prefer for servers, and why? What are
>> your general recommendations these days?
>
> Personally, I think source-based distributions are a step backward. I
> administer an old Solaris 8 box which at this point is mostly source-based.
> I build the source. I install the source. I worry about upgrades to the
> source. I use GNU Stow for package management.
>
> I do wonder how the source-based distributions manage security upgrades.
> When they're focused on end-users and desktop machines they don't need to
> worry as much about security upgrades. Let the end-users muck it out. Let
> them subscribe to all the important lists, and install the patches by hand.
> This doesn't work so well in a production environment, though.
>
> The big benefit of binary distros for servers is that package maintenance
> gets a lot easier. Who cares about base system install time? It is
> meaningless as it happens once. The problem comes when you need to
> perform security upgrades, and when your users want you to add software,
> and they want it fast. Worse still, when there's been a single major
> security hole fixed that will require relinking almost all your system
> with an updated library.
>
> How easy would it be if you need to patch zlib or worse yet, libc? I know
> how easy it is to upgrade core libraries on Debian-based systems. I know
> how much impact it has on my users and how much down-time to expect. More
> than that, as it is an automated process there's little to no chance that
> I'll muck it up.
>
> The ease of upgrading is the big reason I have favored Debian-derived
> systems. I'm currently administering Debian 3.1 systems. However at the
> next major system upgrade those will be moving to Ubuntu LTS.
>
> The reason we're migrating to Ubuntu LTS is that there's a clear established
> release schedule. We'll be able to plan software upgrades much the same way
> that we are able to plan hardware upgrades. As we'll be able to plan them
> in-sync, we should have better matched configuration. As we have a clear
> schedule, we should be able to plan our internal development to work around
> it.
>
> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


- --
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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RE: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

Steven Black wrote:
> Personally, I think source-based distributions are a step
> backward. I administer an old Solaris 8 box which at this point
> is mostly source-based.
> I build the source. I install the source. I worry about upgrades
> to the source. I use GNU Stow for package management.

I don't think I could make a blanket statement like that. If we were
talking about Slackware, yes, I'd say it's a step backwards. I wouldn't
say the same for Gentoo, however (or even FreeBSD).

> I do wonder how the source-based distributions manage security
> upgrades.

"Repackage" the upstream and make it available, same as the binary-based
distros do? Gentoo, anyways -- I can't speak for all of them as that's
the only one I use.

> When they're focused on end-users and desktop machines they don't
> need to worry as much about security upgrades. Let the end-users
> muck it out. Let them subscribe to all the important lists, and
> install the patches by hand.
> This doesn't work so well in a production environment, though.

*waits for the USSG guys to jump in*

> The big benefit of binary distros for servers is that package
> maintenance gets a lot easier. Who cares about base system
> install time? It is meaningless as it happens once. The problem
> comes when you need to perform security upgrades, and when your
> users want you to add software, and they want it fast. Worse
> still, when there's been a single major security hole fixed that
> will require relinking almost all your system with an updated
> library.

In this age of multi-core CPUs and gigabit connections, I don't think
this is as much of an issue as it used to be. I can still bring this
Gentoo box up to date quicker than I can some of our Windows servers.

> How easy would it be if you need to patch zlib or worse yet,
> libc? I know how easy it is to upgrade core libraries on
> Debian-based systems. I know how much impact it has on my users
> and how much down-time to expect. More than that, as it is an
> automated process there's little to no chance that I'll muck it
> up.

Easy enough? Can it be done as quickly as just plunking down a new
binary package? No, but it works for me. I suppose that's why we have
a choice. =)

> The ease of upgrading is the big reason I have favored
> Debian-derived systems. I'm currently administering Debian 3.1
> systems. However at the next major system upgrade those will be
> moving to Ubuntu LTS.

I have been (was) a fan of Debian for years. The Debian Project seems
to be falling apart, however, due to all the politics. With Debian you
have your choice of rock-solid software that's a few years old, or
bleeding-edge software that can potentially (and will, eventually) hose
your system.

I'm much happier w/ RHEL.


--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College of Indiana
812.330.6156 (w) 812.330.6212 (f)

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RE: [BLUG] LPI certs (was: C/C++)

Steven Black wrote:
> Red Hat still has a bit of a crazy following among many
> enterprise lots. I think they get this by appealing to features
> easy to market to management more than for technical merits,
> personally.

There's a fair number of technical folks who really like RHEL (myself
included). It's stable and reliable as hell, for one thing. RH support
is (usually) pretty good. And definitely not least, RHN *rocks*,
especially if you've got a satellite. Management, provisioning,
kickstarting, etc. There just isn't any other distro I've seen that has
the same management tools. (Not to mention that RH really knows how to
throw a party!)


--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College of Indiana
812.330.6156 (w) 812.330.6212 (f)

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Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

On Sun, Sep 16, 2007 at 12:20:22AM -0400, Joe Auty wrote:
> Which sort of distribution do you prefer for servers, and why? What are
> your general recommendations these days?

Personally, I think source-based distributions are a step backward. I
administer an old Solaris 8 box which at this point is mostly source-based.
I build the source. I install the source. I worry about upgrades to the
source. I use GNU Stow for package management.

I do wonder how the source-based distributions manage security upgrades.
When they're focused on end-users and desktop machines they don't need to
worry as much about security upgrades. Let the end-users muck it out. Let
them subscribe to all the important lists, and install the patches by hand.
This doesn't work so well in a production environment, though.

The big benefit of binary distros for servers is that package maintenance
gets a lot easier. Who cares about base system install time? It is
meaningless as it happens once. The problem comes when you need to
perform security upgrades, and when your users want you to add software,
and they want it fast. Worse still, when there's been a single major
security hole fixed that will require relinking almost all your system
with an updated library.

How easy would it be if you need to patch zlib or worse yet, libc? I know
how easy it is to upgrade core libraries on Debian-based systems. I know
how much impact it has on my users and how much down-time to expect. More
than that, as it is an automated process there's little to no chance that
I'll muck it up.

The ease of upgrading is the big reason I have favored Debian-derived
systems. I'm currently administering Debian 3.1 systems. However at the
next major system upgrade those will be moving to Ubuntu LTS.

The reason we're migrating to Ubuntu LTS is that there's a clear established
release schedule. We'll be able to plan software upgrades much the same way
that we are able to plan hardware upgrades. As we'll be able to plan them
in-sync, we should have better matched configuration. As we have a clear
schedule, we should be able to plan our internal development to work around
it.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] LPI certs (was: C/C++)

On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 06:15:12PM -0400, "Simón A. Ruiz" wrote:
> Sorry to say it, but "Use Red Hat Package Manager", also has a weight of
> 8/8, and nothing has a weight of 7/8. So I can tell that those two will
> both be tested rigorously and above and beyond anything else.

This shouldn't be that surprising. Red Hat was one of the first
Linux distributions to push for certification exams, and IIRC the
first Linux-related certs were all Red Hat Linux certs.

Red Hat still has a bit of a crazy following among many enterprise
lots. I think they get this by appealing to features easy to market
to management more than for technical merits, personally.

Cheers,
Steven Black


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Re: [BLUG] LPI exams (was C++)

On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 02:13:01PM -0400, Simón Ruiz wrote:
> I'm going through O'Reilly's "LPI Linux Ceritification in a nutshell"
> and, indeed, man pages. I'll also be taking the "LPI Cram Session"
> class at the "Ohio LinuxFest University" two days before the exam.

Perhaps I'll see you at the Ohio LinuxFest.

With regards to the LPI, I don't know if most folks are aware, but
the Ubuntu certification leans heavily upon the LPI exams. Basically,
it is just one final Ubuntu-specific exam after taking the two LPI
exams.

> On one hand, I don't have the 2 years of System Administration they
> designed the exam for. On the other hand, I think I've learned my way
> around pretty quickly, I've got years of practice taking standardized
> tests in school (I'd say I have a knack for them), and I'm dedicated.

I've not taken the LPI exams (yet). However, I have taken the MySQL
exams.

While I also had a knack for standardized tests in school, my
experience of certification exams is that well, they're virtually
nothing like school exams. Expect no stupid clearly wrong answers.
Expect most of the questions to have only almost-correct answers.
Expect more questions which explicitly have more than one correct
answer. ("Which of the following are correct?" Answers are attached
to checkboxes, not a radio buttons.)

Cheers,
Steven Black

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[BLUG] Fwd: Free/Open Source Research

A lot of people seem to be doing this type of research these days. At
least she gave you several different options to take the survey.

----- Forwarded message from Nordine BENKELTOUM <nordine.benkeltoum@ensmp.fr> -----

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:42:46 +0200
From: Nordine BENKELTOUM <nordine.benkeltoum@ensmp.fr>
To: mark@slugbug.org
Subject: Free/Open Source Research

Hi,

I'm carrying out a study on Free/open source software.

Given the fact that the LUGs gather specialists of this topic, could you ask
your members to take part in our research project by filling in the
following questionnaire available on this link :

http://orthonormed.free.fr

Don't hesitate to transmit the questionnaire to your colleagues or members
of the communities in which you're involved.

Thank you for your participation.

Best Regards

Nordine BENKELTOUM
PhD student
Center for Organization and Management Sciences
Ecole des Mines de Paris
nordine.benkeltoum@ensmp.fr

----- End forwarded message -----

--
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Sunday, September 16, 2007

[BLUG] Kino uses vi movement keys

One thing I forgot about and forgot to mention during my presentation
is that Kino actually uses vi movement keys and commands for editing.
So h and l take you back and forth frame by frame and stuff like Ctrl+j
will split a scene at the current frame and Shift Ctrl j joins then back
together. So this is another reason why Kino was related to vi and also
a good reason to learn the vi keys.

http://www.kinodv.org/docbook/

So if you wanted to, you could do almost all of your video editing
with just your keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oVeBIrJMPg

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Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

On Sunday 16 September 2007 11:09:03 am Shing-Shong Shei wrote:
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> > - DB server: Gentoo (think optimized, stripped down install -- I want as
> > much performance as possible outta that box)
>
> Just wonder if you have done any benchmarks to support this claim.
> Even if you compile everything from sources with higher optimization
> flags does not guarantee that the generated codes will run faster --
> there are just too many factors that can affect the runtime efficiency.
> Also I think DB server tends to be I/O bound and you will have better
> luck tuning the I/O subsystem than, say, compiling the whole system.
>
> Shing-Shong
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

something else if you don't mind going the bsd path might be openbsd path
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Re: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

Hi Jeremy,

> - DB server: Gentoo (think optimized, stripped down install -- I want as
> much performance as possible outta that box)

Just wonder if you have done any benchmarks to support this claim.
Even if you compile everything from sources with higher optimization
flags does not guarantee that the generated codes will run faster --
there are just too many factors that can affect the runtime efficiency.
Also I think DB server tends to be I/O bound and you will have better
luck tuning the I/O subsystem than, say, compiling the whole system.

Shing-Shong

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Saturday, September 15, 2007

RE: [BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

Joe Auty wrote:
> Which sort of distribution do you prefer for servers, and why?
> What are your general recommendations these days?

I run RHEL on just about everything, with a couple of exceptions:

- DB server: Gentoo (think optimized, stripped down install -- I want as
much performance as possible outta that box).
- Syslog server: Debian (stripped down install -- would've been Gentoo
but I wasn't messing w/ it at the time that box was set up).

That's assuming you're referring to production servers, of course.

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College of Indiana
812.330.6156 (w) 812.330.6212 (f)


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[BLUG] Are source based distributions better for servers?

It would seem to me that the strengths of a package based distro like
Ubuntu or Red Hat is the speed and ease in which software can be
updated, machines can be rebuilt/deployed. However, if you need certain
non-default command line options enabled with your software, you are
left to hunting down a non-Red Hat RPM or building one on your own. This
I'm not such a big fan of, since I'm not sure which non-Red Hat RPMs can
be safely trusted, and plus it is a PITA. I'm assuming this same sort of
thing applies to Ubuntu Server, but I'm not all that familiar with
apt-get just yet...

The advantage of a source based distribution seems to be that custom
build options are easier, software might be a little more optimized for
your hardware once compiled on the host hardware, but building software
takes time, and if your production server has a high load, it's best not
to build on the server. Some source based distributions support
packages/binaries, but in my experience under FreeBSD they are often
missing.

Of the source distributions, I have to say that while I've given Gentoo
a lot of my time, I prefer FreeBSD. I have been debating the possibility
of migrating from FreeBSD to Linux on my server, but I really can't come
up with a good justification.

Which sort of distribution do you prefer for servers, and why? What are
your general recommendations these days?

--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 15/09/2007, Michael Schultheiss <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
> Michel Salim wrote:
> > I feel your pain. LILO! Not aware that any distribution still ships it
> > by default, on most platforms anyway (I believe it's still needed on
> > Itaniums).
>
> Itaniums use ELILO which is a different beast. They also use EFI
> instead of the PC type BIOS. I believe the new Macs also use EFI and
> may use ELILO for Linux asx well.

I don't think any distribution is currently using ELILO on Intel Macs,
AFAIK -- would be nice when they do, and use the GPT partition table
natively. I think Intel's Santa Rosa platform also comes with EFI
instead of BIOS (but with BIOS emulation turned on by default,
naturally), so hopefully there'll be a critical mass of machines soon
(that, or someone ships a souped-up version of OLPC, with the
even-nicer OpenFirmware + LinuxBIOS)

> > RPM has its quirks, though it does have some features DPKG does not
> > (dependencies on files, e.g. a package can say "I need
> > /usr/sbin/useradd").
>
> I absolutely hate that. I have to work with RPMs at work and I recently
> changed our dependencies to be totally package based. I can't say "I
> want version foo of /usr/sbin/useradd" but can say "I need shadow-utils
> >= XYZ"
Yeah, it's mostly useful for third-party upstream packagers, I guess.
If they want to release a single RPM that will install on multiple
RPM-based distros, and thus cannot rely on a particular package name
..

Fedora uses package- and virtual-package dependencies (almost?)
exclusively, as far as I know.

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Michel Salim wrote:
> On 15/09/2007, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But a lot of stuff that I don't yet know too much about also has high
>> weight in the test. I need to learn my way around RPMs, LILO, and all
>> the "GNU and Unix commands".
>
> Presumably you are using VMware or Xen to run one or two RPM-based
> distros? (or have multiple physical machines -- lucky you!)
>

VMware Player and a virtual Fedora 7 machine.

I do have multiple physical machines. They're just mostly collecting
dust in a closet. IBM PC, anyone? ;-)
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Michael Schultheiss wrote:
> Simón Ruiz wrote:
>> I also understand that it's been updated, at least since 1998.
>> "Configuring Communications Devices" has a weight of 1 while "Use
>> Debian Package Management" has a weight of 8 (out of 8).
>
> w00t
>
> One of my other FLOSS hats is Debian Developer :)

Sorry to say it, but "Use Red Hat Package Manager", also has a weight of
8/8, and nothing has a weight of 7/8. So I can tell that those two will
both be tested rigorously and above and beyond anything else.
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Michel Salim wrote:
> I feel your pain. LILO! Not aware that any distribution still ships it
> by default, on most platforms anyway (I believe it's still needed on
> Itaniums).

Itaniums use ELILO which is a different beast. They also use EFI
instead of the PC type BIOS. I believe the new Macs also use EFI and
may use ELILO for Linux asx well.

>
> RPM has its quirks, though it does have some features DPKG does not
> (dependencies on files, e.g. a package can say "I need
> /usr/sbin/useradd").

I absolutely hate that. I have to work with RPMs at work and I recently
changed our dependencies to be totally package based. I can't say "I
want version foo of /usr/sbin/useradd" but can say "I need shadow-utils
>= XYZ"
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> I also understand that it's been updated, at least since 1998.
> "Configuring Communications Devices" has a weight of 1 while "Use
> Debian Package Management" has a weight of 8 (out of 8).

w00t

One of my other FLOSS hats is Debian Developer :)

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 15/09/2007, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:

> But a lot of stuff that I don't yet know too much about also has high
> weight in the test. I need to learn my way around RPMs, LILO, and all
> the "GNU and Unix commands".
>
I feel your pain. LILO! Not aware that any distribution still ships it
by default, on most platforms anyway (I believe it's still needed on
Itaniums).

RPM has its quirks, though it does have some features DPKG does not
(dependencies on files, e.g. a package can say "I need
/usr/sbin/useradd"). Conversely, DPKG has "Suggest" (optional
dependencies) and the ability to re-run post-installation
configuration steps. Red Hat's yum is getting close to Apt in speed,
and SUSE's zypper is getting better too (in 10.3, zypper on 10.2 is
rubbish).. and RPM does multi-lib, of course.

Presumably you are using VMware or Xen to run one or two RPM-based
distros? (or have multiple physical machines -- lucky you!)

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 15/09/2007, Simón Ruiz <simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com> wrote:

> P.S. C-pound? C-sharp? C-plusplusplusplus?

C-Java! Or Java++ . One of those things I'm glad that Microsoft has
written, it jolts Sun out of complacency.

--
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of Red Hat and the OSS community"

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

I'm going through O'Reilly's "LPI Linux Ceritification in a nutshell"
and, indeed, man pages. I'll also be taking the "LPI Cram Session"
class at the "Ohio LinuxFest University" two days before the exam.

I don't really have an expectation one way or another on whether I
will pass this time.

On one hand, I don't have the 2 years of System Administration they
designed the exam for. On the other hand, I think I've learned my way
around pretty quickly, I've got years of practice taking standardized
tests in school (I'd say I have a knack for them), and I'm dedicated.

I don't know if I'll pass this time, but I know I will pass. If I
don't succeed, I will try again.

I also understand that it's been updated, at least since 1998.
"Configuring Communications Devices" has a weight of 1 while "Use
Debian Package Management" has a weight of 8 (out of 8).

But a lot of stuff that I don't yet know too much about also has high
weight in the test. I need to learn my way around RPMs, LILO, and all
the "GNU and Unix commands".

I'm quite aware that it won't be a walk in the park. But then if it
were, getting the Certification wouldn't mean anything. I'm going for
the cert to improve myself, it'd be disappointing if it was easy. ;-)

Simón

On 9/15/07, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> Welcome to the dark side. A good preperation for that exam is to read
> the man pages for all the commands. And I mean all of them. You almost
> can't study for that exam, it is a challenge for even those that have
> mastered the commands and it will kick the ass of anyone who doesn't
> know them. For instance, it will ask things like what does ls -f do.
> How many of you know without looking it up? And then it asks questions
> like what does chown -r do? To which the answer is nothing because
> there is no such option but of course they have the option for do the
> chown recursively there. -R does the operation recursively.
>
> I don't mean to scare you but you should have an idea about it not
> being a walk in the park. When I took it in 2004, some of the questions
> were very dated, showing that it had been written in 1998 or so and
> hadn't been updated, so you should expect to see questions about various
> dialup software.
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On Sat, Sep 15, 2007 at 05:36:58AM GMT, Simón Ruiz [simon.a.ruiz@gmail.com] said the following:
>
> It's amazing how geeky my studying is these days, I can't really talk
> to anyone but my boss and my fellow LUG/LoCo people about it. Java...
> Python... and I'm studying to take my LPI 101 exam at the Ohio
> LinuxFest this year. (And, oh, yeah, I'll also need to get over my
> command-line text editor block, cause vi(m) is on the exam. Hoorah!
> :-) )
>

Welcome to the dark side. A good preperation for that exam is to read
the man pages for all the commands. And I mean all of them. You almost
can't study for that exam, it is a challenge for even those that have
mastered the commands and it will kick the ass of anyone who doesn't
know them. For instance, it will ask things like what does ls -f do.
How many of you know without looking it up? And then it asks questions
like what does chown -r do? To which the answer is nothing because
there is no such option but of course they have the option for do the
chown recursively there. -R does the operation recursively.

I don't mean to scare you but you should have an idea about it not
being a walk in the park. When I took it in 2004, some of the questions
were very dated, showing that it had been written in 1998 or so and
hadn't been updated, so you should expect to see questions about various
dialup software.

--
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Bloomington Linux Users Group
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Friday, September 14, 2007

Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Ana,

I'm co-teaching classes in Python and Java as I myself am co-learning
my way around them with the students. (I'm still not sure whether it's
a help or hindrance to be learning two languages at the same time, but
I do definitely prefer Python so far...)

For Python I have mostly been using the IDLE IDE (which is
specifically for Python), because basically it works like a decent
text editor with highlighting and auto-tabbing that lets you hit F5 to
run your program (though there's a glitch in that it doesn't focus on
the newly running program windows, ick).

Got a tic-tac-toe program with an unbeatable computer player put
together in a day — incidentally, it's not fun to play against an
unbeatable computer player, but it was kind of fun to program it. My
next challenge on that, if I don't get distracted with something else,
is to try to see if I can get it to recognize a stalemate game before
all 9 moves are up.

For Java, although we're using Eclipse for the class, I'm using a
Gedit window (syntax highlighting, but otherwise no frills) and a
gnome-terminal window with a custom bash script (javac $1.java && java
$1) as my IDE.

I've not had the patience to write a Java program that does anything
"useful" yet. Honestly, if I didn't have to learn it to teach my
class, I'd probably drop Java and concentrate on Python.

It's amazing how geeky my studying is these days, I can't really talk
to anyone but my boss and my fellow LUG/LoCo people about it. Java...
Python... and I'm studying to take my LPI 101 exam at the Ohio
LinuxFest this year. (And, oh, yeah, I'll also need to get over my
command-line text editor block, cause vi(m) is on the exam. Hoorah!
:-) )

I'll be co-teaching a C programming class next semester, but the Java
will live on in the form of our AP Computer class.

Simón

P.S. C-pound? C-sharp? C-plusplusplusplus?

On 9/12/07, Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com> wrote:
> As some of you know, I'm taking the beginning C/C++/C# class at Ivy
> Tech this semester, in which we're using Microsoft Visual Studio 2005.
>
> What tool/tools would you suggest I start with, to follow along on the
> Linux side? I suspect I'll learn better, if I'm more able to mentally
> separate the task from the tools (if that makes sense).
>
> Bear in mind this is my first venture into any kind of programming
> whatsoever. (Unless you count BASIC on a TRS-80 Model III, back in
> high school.) So simpler, more basic tools probably make the most
> sense.
>
> Ana

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Gillis, Chad wrote:
> But if you want to tackle a phobia of command-line text editors, then
> there'd be no way of completely destroying it and putting it to rest
> like figuring out vi. I've gone through the tutorials that Mark
> talked about on Tuesday, vimtutor and vilearn. They're actually
> really well laid out. Of course depending on whether you have time
> and whether it's a priority for you, you could give them a shot.
> Emacs also has a really good tutorial which is available in the help
> menu or by control-h t.

When I first started using vi I often referenced
http://unix.t-a-y-l-o-r.com/Vi.html (Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi
is a Two Letter Abbreviation)

"Vi (officially pronounced `vee-eye'/unofficially pronounced `six'
because of the feeling one gets when using vi that it may be the text
editor of the antichrist) is a display oriented interactive text
editor."
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

But if you want to tackle a phobia of command-line text editors, then
there'd be no way of completely destroying it and putting it to rest
like figuring out vi. I've gone through the tutorials that Mark talked
about on Tuesday, vimtutor and vilearn. They're actually really well
laid out. Of course depending on whether you have time and whether
it's a priority for you, you could give them a shot. Emacs also has a
really good tutorial which is available in the help menu or by
control-h t.

Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:

> Thanks--I'll give this a try next week.
>
> It's NOT an irrational fear of the command line--I'd just like to make
> that clear. My fear is of command line text editors. So, it's a very
> specific irrational fear. More akin to a dog who flips out when the
> fridge kicks on, but who is unbothered by the vacuum cleaner and the
> washer and dryer and dishwasher. As opposed to a dog with a fear of
> strange noises...
>
> Ana (who is still trying to figure out how to be in Dayton, Ohio at
> 7:00 am, without having to just STAY up until 3:00 am, then loading up
> the collie and the cooler and leaving...)
>
> On 9/14/07, Gillis, Chad <rcgillis@indiana.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:
>>
>> >
>> > And, for over a year now, I've suspected that, sooner or later, my
>> > irrational fear of command line text editors was going to bite me in
>> > the butt. It appears I was right.
>> >
>>
>> Hi Ana,
>>
>> If you have an irrational fear of the command line then try an example
>> to get you started.
>>
>> Open up a command line terminal somewhere.
>>
>> At the terminal type:
>>
>> "ls learningCpp" <enter>
>>
>> If it says "No such file or directory" then type
>>
>> "mkdir learningCpp" <enter>
>>
>> (otherwise choose a different directory name)
>>
>> Follow this by
>>
>> "cd learningCpp" <enter>
>>
>> then
>>
>> "emacs example.cpp" <enter>
>>
>> An emacs window should open.
>>
>> Then cut and paste the following into the emacs window
>>
>> /////////START HERE////////////
>> #include <iostream>
>> using namespace std;
>>
>> int main(){
>>
>> for(int i=0;i<10;i++){
>> cout << "hello!!! " << i << endl;
>> }
>>
>> return 0;
>>
>> }
>> //////////END HERE//////////////
>>
>> In the emacs window hold down the control key. While holding down the
>> control key type x then type s. That will save the file. Now go back
>> to the terminal.
>>
>> In the terminal type
>>
>> "g++ example.cpp -o example" <enter>
>>
>> followed by
>>
>> "./example" <enter>.
>>
>> Assuming I haven't left anything out, then that will have edited the
>> program example.cpp, compiled it and then run it.
>>
>> I'm just using emacs as an example since that's what my own limited
>> experience has provided me with.
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>> Chad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Hi Ana, Sorry I misunderstood. That example that I gave was probably
unnecessary. Hope you have a good trip.

Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:

> Thanks--I'll give this a try next week.
>
> It's NOT an irrational fear of the command line--I'd just like to make
> that clear. My fear is of command line text editors. So, it's a very
> specific irrational fear. More akin to a dog who flips out when the
> fridge kicks on, but who is unbothered by the vacuum cleaner and the
> washer and dryer and dishwasher. As opposed to a dog with a fear of
> strange noises...
>
> Ana (who is still trying to figure out how to be in Dayton, Ohio at
> 7:00 am, without having to just STAY up until 3:00 am, then loading up
> the collie and the cooler and leaving...)

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Thanks--I'll give this a try next week.

It's NOT an irrational fear of the command line--I'd just like to make
that clear. My fear is of command line text editors. So, it's a very
specific irrational fear. More akin to a dog who flips out when the
fridge kicks on, but who is unbothered by the vacuum cleaner and the
washer and dryer and dishwasher. As opposed to a dog with a fear of
strange noises...

Ana (who is still trying to figure out how to be in Dayton, Ohio at
7:00 am, without having to just STAY up until 3:00 am, then loading up
the collie and the cooler and leaving...)

On 9/14/07, Gillis, Chad <rcgillis@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:
>
> >
> > And, for over a year now, I've suspected that, sooner or later, my
> > irrational fear of command line text editors was going to bite me in
> > the butt. It appears I was right.
> >
>
> Hi Ana,
>
> If you have an irrational fear of the command line then try an example
> to get you started.
>
> Open up a command line terminal somewhere.
>
> At the terminal type:
>
> "ls learningCpp" <enter>
>
> If it says "No such file or directory" then type
>
> "mkdir learningCpp" <enter>
>
> (otherwise choose a different directory name)
>
> Follow this by
>
> "cd learningCpp" <enter>
>
> then
>
> "emacs example.cpp" <enter>
>
> An emacs window should open.
>
> Then cut and paste the following into the emacs window
>
> /////////START HERE////////////
> #include <iostream>
> using namespace std;
>
> int main(){
>
> for(int i=0;i<10;i++){
> cout << "hello!!! " << i << endl;
> }
>
> return 0;
>
> }
> //////////END HERE//////////////
>
> In the emacs window hold down the control key. While holding down the
> control key type x then type s. That will save the file. Now go back
> to the terminal.
>
> In the terminal type
>
> "g++ example.cpp -o example" <enter>
>
> followed by
>
> "./example" <enter>.
>
> Assuming I haven't left anything out, then that will have edited the
> program example.cpp, compiled it and then run it.
>
> I'm just using emacs as an example since that's what my own limited
> experience has provided me with.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Chad
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:

>
> And, for over a year now, I've suspected that, sooner or later, my
> irrational fear of command line text editors was going to bite me in
> the butt. It appears I was right.
>

Hi Ana,

If you have an irrational fear of the command line then try an example
to get you started.

Open up a command line terminal somewhere.

At the terminal type:

"ls learningCpp" <enter>

If it says "No such file or directory" then type

"mkdir learningCpp" <enter>

(otherwise choose a different directory name)

Follow this by

"cd learningCpp" <enter>

then

"emacs example.cpp" <enter>

An emacs window should open.

Then cut and paste the following into the emacs window

/////////START HERE////////////
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

int main(){

for(int i=0;i<10;i++){
cout << "hello!!! " << i << endl;
}

return 0;

}
//////////END HERE//////////////

In the emacs window hold down the control key. While holding down the
control key type x then type s. That will save the file. Now go back
to the terminal.

In the terminal type

"g++ example.cpp -o example" <enter>

followed by

"./example" <enter>.

Assuming I haven't left anything out, then that will have edited the
program example.cpp, compiled it and then run it.

I'm just using emacs as an example since that's what my own limited
experience has provided me with.

Hope that helps.

Chad


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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Thank you to all who have offered suggestions!

I'll admit there's a part of me that began thinking "Maybe I should
just drop this class, and take up needlepoint instead." but I'm over
it now.

My first baby-homework project appears to run properly; that's a plus.
I think my issue with doing all this with Visual Studio (only) is the
whole "Step 8, click the magic button" aspect of it. I'm not real good
with rote memorization for tasks--I need to understand what I'm doing
and why.

And, for over a year now, I've suspected that, sooner or later, my
irrational fear of command line text editors was going to bite me in
the butt. It appears I was right.

I'm outta here tonight for a trial in Dayton (just Jett, not Xen this
weekend) and will put some time into this whole thing next week.

Thanks!

Ana

On 9/13/07, Michel Salim <msalim@indiana.edu> wrote:
> On 13/09/2007, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 02:54:25PM GMT, Michel Salim [msalim@indiana.edu] said the following:
> > >
> > > Not sure it's a good idea to learn a language, an editor *and* a build
> > > system all at once!
> > >
> >
> > As opposed to what? Learning Visual studio? Which is a language an
> > editor and a build system? I guess I don't see your point. The
> > difference is that if she learns vi or emacs, she can carry those skills
> > with her other places.
> >
> I guess you don't see my point indeed. Nowhere did I say I endorse
> Visual Studio as a good IDE (it did not even have refactoring support
> until, what, 2005?). But if Ana is going to have to use it anyway for
> her classes, I don't see why she shouldn't use an IDE that's close in
> ease-of-learning.
>
> Plus, there are things about the standard GNU toolchains, especially
> the build tools (autoconf/automake) that are quite intimidating (and
> at the same time, mundane) at first. KDevelop will generate automake
> and autoconf scripts for you:
>
> http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdevelop/kdevelop/makesystems.html#automake-project
>
> I like using traditional editors too, but I recognise that a modern
> IDE has its place: Vi(m)/Emacs for languages and tools you are already
> familiar with, KDevelop/Eclipse/etc. for either large projects or for
> languages you are still learning (before someone says "Vi/Emacs can do
> that too!", let me ask if either has Javadoc / Ndoc support)
>
> --
> Michel
>
> --
> Michel
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
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Thursday, September 13, 2007

Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 13/09/2007, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 02:54:25PM GMT, Michel Salim [msalim@indiana.edu] said the following:
> >
> > Not sure it's a good idea to learn a language, an editor *and* a build
> > system all at once!
> >
>
> As opposed to what? Learning Visual studio? Which is a language an
> editor and a build system? I guess I don't see your point. The
> difference is that if she learns vi or emacs, she can carry those skills
> with her other places.
>
I guess you don't see my point indeed. Nowhere did I say I endorse
Visual Studio as a good IDE (it did not even have refactoring support
until, what, 2005?). But if Ana is going to have to use it anyway for
her classes, I don't see why she shouldn't use an IDE that's close in
ease-of-learning.

Plus, there are things about the standard GNU toolchains, especially
the build tools (autoconf/automake) that are quite intimidating (and
at the same time, mundane) at first. KDevelop will generate automake
and autoconf scripts for you:

http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdevelop/kdevelop/makesystems.html#automake-project

I like using traditional editors too, but I recognise that a modern
IDE has its place: Vi(m)/Emacs for languages and tools you are already
familiar with, KDevelop/Eclipse/etc. for either large projects or for
languages you are still learning (before someone says "Vi/Emacs can do
that too!", let me ask if either has Javadoc / Ndoc support)

--
Michel

--
Michel
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:05:13PM +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 02:54:25PM GMT, Michel Salim [msalim@indiana.edu] said the following:
> >
> > Not sure it's a good idea to learn a language, an editor *and* a build
> > system all at once!
> >
>
> As opposed to what? Learning Visual studio? Which is a language an
> editor and a build system? I guess I don't see your point. The
> difference is that if she learns vi or emacs, she can carry those skills
> with her other places.

You can start with any editor. Screen can help a lot. Have one screen
window allocated for a shell to run make and test the program. Have one
screen window allocated to run 'man' on functions. Then have two or more
screen windows allocated for editing files.

This is still frequently the way I prefer to develop. It is easily portable
to any editor. (And I have used several.)

Most build systems are very easy for simple things. GNU Make is actually
less easy than much of the competition, however it is easy for people to
do simple things poorly so people fail to understand how they're misusing
it. (Make is the reason there are so many "make" alternatives.) The big
benefit of knowing a little about it is that it is so commonly available.

GUI develoment environments have been popular since the development of
EMACS (the first IDE). All other IDEs were first attempts at gaining a
subset of the features available in EMACS. If you want a complete IDE,
you may want to learn EMACS.

Please note: Anyone in their right mind will tell you that MS Visual
Studio has some unmatched debugging features. You won't be able to find
anything coming very close to the features, if that is your standard.
Like many applications, while extra features can be nice, they're not
actually needed to get work done. You may be surprised with how many
projects use printf() for debugging.

The more graphical heavy development environments have their place,
certainly, however most people will eventually need to do some remote
debugging, remote development, or remote testing. You will likely need
to become comfortable in an environment with TTY access. You may as
well start now. Even for GUI development, if you manage to properly
seperate your application logic from the GUI interface it can greatly
increase testing options. Command-line tools are more easily automated,
and a seperate library for the application logic allows a variety of
interfaces to be made available -- including text-based interfaces.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

#!/usr/bin/env make
# This should be called Makefile or makefile
# This simple makefile was released anonymously in to the public domain.
# Note: This isn't expected to work with GNU Make < 3.79 or other non-GNU makes

## Your list of sources
## *.c - C source code
## *.cpp / *.cxx / *.cc / *.c++ / *.C - C++ source code
SOURCES:=test.c

## The name of the executible
TARGET:=test

## Used to compile your C sources
CFLAGS:= -Wall
## Used to compile your C++ sources
CXXFLAGS:= -Wall
## Used to specify C preprocessor flags
# CPPFLAGS:= -DMY_VALUE="defined"
CPPFLAGS:=

## Used for the final link for the executible
# LDFLAGS:= -lm
LDFLAGS:=

# Any additional files you want to remove can go here
CLEANFILES:=

### Some customization flags

## How are capitalized extensions handled?
# Indicates whether the capitalized letter is 'normal' (C++, etc.),
# or the 'same' as the uncapitalized version.
CAPMODE:=normal

## The default target is what is run when no target is specified.
# Historically 'all' is the default target. In our case, 'all' is
# mapped to this DEFAULT_TARGET. Sane settings for this would be
# 'help' or 'build'.
DEFAULT_TARGET:=help

### Over-ride some settings provided by Make.

# We want to use GCC where possible
CC:=gcc
CXX:=gcc
# x86 Linux systems prefer gcc to be used as the linker
LD:=gcc

### End of user-servicable parts

# Now, do not let targets mess with our pseudo-targets
ifneq ($(filter-out /%,$(TARGET)),)
TARGET:=$(addprefix ./,$(TARGET))
endif

DEFAULT_TARGET:=$(strip $(DEFAULT_TARGET))
ifeq ($(DEFAULT_TARGET),)
DEFAULT_TARGET:=build
endif

all: $(DEFAULT_TARGET)
.PHONY: all build
build: $(TARGET)

.PHONY: help
help:
@echo "The following targets are available:"
@echo " help: this help message."
@echo " build: build the TARGET: $(TARGET)"
@echo " clean: clean the directory"
@echo " tar.gz: create a .tar.gz from current directory"
@echo " tar.bz2: create a .tar.bz2 from current directory"

OBJECTS:=$(addsuffix .o,$(basename $(SOURCES)))
CLEANFILES := $(wildcard $(addsuffix .d,$(basename $(SOURCES))) $(filter-out $(filter %.o, $(SOURCES)),$(OBJECTS)) $(CLEANFILES) $(TARGET))
.PHONY: clean
clean:
ifneq ($(CLEANFILES),)
$(RM) $(CLEANFILES)
endif

$(OBJECTS): $(filter-out %.d, $(MAKEFILE_LIST))

ifeq ($(notdir $(CC)),gcc)
# -MD or -MDD should provides us the .d dep files on demand
ifeq ($(filter -M%,$(CPPFLAGS)),)
CPPFLAGS:=$(CPPFLAGS) -MD
endif
endif # ... gcc

.PHONY: tar.gz tar.bz2

TAR_DIR=$(notdir $(shell pwd))
TAR_BASE=$(TAR_DIR)_$(shell date +'%Y-%m-%d_%H-%M').tar

tar.gz:
tar -zcvf ../$(strip $(TAR_BASE)).gz -C .. $(TAR_DIR)

tar.bz2:
tar -jcvf ../$(strip $(TAR_BASE)).bz2 -C .. $(TAR_DIR)

# Please note: We leave the dependancies mostly up to the built-ins

$(TARGET): $(OBJECTS)

ifeq ($(CAPMODE),same)
# Normally we let GCC auto-determine the type of source code. In this case
# we force the matter with "-x".
# Note: This is based on GNU Make 3.81 built-in logic. See make -p for more
%.o: %.C
$(COMPILE.c) -x c $(OUTPUT_OPTION) $<

endif

# -MD creates per-file dependancy files which we can include
# If you're not using GCC, then the dependancies will never be right unless
# you alter the makefile logic.
ifneq ($(filter clean, $(MAKECMDGOALS)),clean)
-include $(addsuffix .d,$(basename $(SOURCES)))
endif

# end of Makefile

On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 09:24:39PM -0400, Pawsitive Results wrote:
> What tool/tools would you suggest I start with, to follow along on the
> Linux side? I suspect I'll learn better, if I'm more able to mentally
> separate the task from the tools (if that makes sense).

Both Emacs and Vim have good syntax highlighting and overall development
support. Most people will be aware of the Emacs support, though the VIM
support is probably a little less well known. (Vim has a :make command,
which will work nicely if you have a Makefile.)

Speaking of Makefiles, they can be a bit intimidating. For starters, you
can use the attached simple makefile. You should check out the GNU Make
info documents for details.

Cheers,
Steven Black

Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 02:54:25PM GMT, Michel Salim [msalim@indiana.edu] said the following:
>
> Not sure it's a good idea to learn a language, an editor *and* a build
> system all at once!
>

As opposed to what? Learning Visual studio? Which is a language an
editor and a build system? I guess I don't see your point. The
difference is that if she learns vi or emacs, she can carry those skills
with her other places.


--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] C/C++

On 12/09/2007, Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com> wrote:
> As some of you know, I'm taking the beginning C/C++/C# class at Ivy
> Tech this semester, in which we're using Microsoft Visual Studio 2005.
>
> What tool/tools would you suggest I start with, to follow along on the
> Linux side? I suspect I'll learn better, if I'm more able to mentally
> separate the task from the tools (if that makes sense).
>
For a more similar experience with Visual Studio, I'd suggest KDevelop
or Anjuta -- both are graphical IDEs like Visual Studio, and I think
the Makefiles they generate should be quite readable.

Not sure it's a good idea to learn a language, an editor *and* a build
system all at once!

--
Michel
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Re: [BLUG] C/C++

By the way, if you want to see that small clip that I used to explain
the philosophy of that, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXnzstpBEOg

This is another one I showed, not related to editors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbkizy-Y3qw

ripped using mencoder:

mencoder dvd://3 -chapter 5-6 -slang en -subdelay 1 -ovc lavc \
-lavcopts vpass=1 -oac mp3lame -af volume=10 -o output.avi

On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 02:25:32AM GMT, Gillis, Chad [rcgillis@indiana.edu] said the following:
> Hi Ana,
>
> Is a good text editor "an extension of your hand" yet? (Quote is from
> Mark's presentation yesterday.) If not then you might want to start as
> early as possible becoming really familiar with the keybindings of one
> of the big two.
> Make sure that the config file for the editor is set up to recognize
> syntax. That way it will help to point out errors, indent
> automatically etc.
>
> It's probably also a good idea to become accustomed to compiling using
> make, just to get into the habit and become familiar with the syntax,
> even if you're only compiling simple programs.
>
> Also, a popular debugger is gdb. Having said that, I haven't gotten as
> much use out of it as I'd like to pretend.
>
> Hope it works out. In reality, all you need is a good text editor
> that's well-configured, g++ and a command line.
>
> Chad
>
> Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:
>
> >As some of you know, I'm taking the beginning C/C++/C# class at Ivy
> >Tech this semester, in which we're using Microsoft Visual Studio 2005.
> >
> >What tool/tools would you suggest I start with, to follow along on the
> >Linux side? I suspect I'll learn better, if I'm more able to mentally
> >separate the task from the tools (if that makes sense).
> >
> >Bear in mind this is my first venture into any kind of programming
> >whatsoever. (Unless you count BASIC on a TRS-80 Model III, back in
> >high school.) So simpler, more basic tools probably make the most
> >sense.
> >
> >Ana
> >_______________________________________________
> >BLUG mailing list
> >BLUG@linuxfan.com
> >http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Wednesday, September 12, 2007

Re: [BLUG] C/C++

Hi Ana,

Is a good text editor "an extension of your hand" yet? (Quote is from
Mark's presentation yesterday.) If not then you might want to start as
early as possible becoming really familiar with the keybindings of one
of the big two.
Make sure that the config file for the editor is set up to recognize
syntax. That way it will help to point out errors, indent
automatically etc.

It's probably also a good idea to become accustomed to compiling using
make, just to get into the habit and become familiar with the syntax,
even if you're only compiling simple programs.

Also, a popular debugger is gdb. Having said that, I haven't gotten as
much use out of it as I'd like to pretend.

Hope it works out. In reality, all you need is a good text editor
that's well-configured, g++ and a command line.

Chad

Quoting Pawsitive Results <pawsitiveresults@gmail.com>:

> As some of you know, I'm taking the beginning C/C++/C# class at Ivy
> Tech this semester, in which we're using Microsoft Visual Studio 2005.
>
> What tool/tools would you suggest I start with, to follow along on the
> Linux side? I suspect I'll learn better, if I'm more able to mentally
> separate the task from the tools (if that makes sense).
>
> Bear in mind this is my first venture into any kind of programming
> whatsoever. (Unless you count BASIC on a TRS-80 Model III, back in
> high school.) So simpler, more basic tools probably make the most
> sense.
>
> Ana
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

_______________________________________________
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BLUG@linuxfan.com
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[BLUG] C/C++

As some of you know, I'm taking the beginning C/C++/C# class at Ivy
Tech this semester, in which we're using Microsoft Visual Studio 2005.

What tool/tools would you suggest I start with, to follow along on the
Linux side? I suspect I'll learn better, if I'm more able to mentally
separate the task from the tools (if that makes sense).

Bear in mind this is my first venture into any kind of programming
whatsoever. (Unless you count BASIC on a TRS-80 Model III, back in
high school.) So simpler, more basic tools probably make the most
sense.

Ana
_______________________________________________
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Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Tommorow's meeting will rock!

Not to worry, its an independent film that the MPAA doesn't care
about. *snicker*

On Tue, Sep 11, 2007 at 07:23:11PM GMT, Michel Salim [msalim@indiana.edu] said the following:
>
> What DVD are you ripping? *cough* DMCA *cough*
>
> --
> Michel
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] Tommorow's meeting will rock!

On 10/09/2007, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>
> Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but it should be better than just
> screen and vim. I plan on using some entertaining multimedia content
> and also include some demonstrations of mencoder and kino, the video
> editing programs. I'll show you how to rip DVD video in Linux. And also
> I will show a bit of Blender, the 3D editor/raytracer. What you'll find
> interesting is in how these are related to screen and vi. I'm also
> going to try to bring my new workstation from home.
>
What DVD are you ripping? *cough* DMCA *cough*

--
Michel
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Monday, September 10, 2007

Re: [BLUG] Projector

Sounds good. Doorway at the end of the B-wing (B is the wing to the
right of the central section). Facing the main parking lots, so it's
on the front of the building. That work?
360-2334, if plans change or whatever.

Ana

On 9/10/07, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>
> I can meet you at 5:50 or so at Ivy Tech. And then bring it back to
> you after the meeting. Just let me know where. Thank you. I'm going
> to try to get a second project from somewhere so that I can have a
> dual-head dual projector setup for the meeting.
>
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 07:13:48PM GMT, Pawsitive Results [pawsitiveresults@gmail.com] said the following:
> > I can still borrow work's projector--I just can't be at the meeting.
> >
> > Someone would have to meet me at Ivy Tech at shortly-before-6:00 on
> > Tuesday, and we'd have to make arrangements for me to get the
> > projector back that night as well.
> >
> > Hopefully, there's an easier way, but if not, and we can coordinate
> > it, it's an option...
> >
> > Ana
> >
> > On 9/10/07, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone have a projector that I can use tommorow night? Preferably one
> > > that does 1280x1024 or 1024x768. My normal source went on vacation and
> > > decided to lock the cabinet.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Mark Krenz
> > > Bloomington Linux Users Group
> > > http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > BLUG mailing list
> > > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [BLUG] Projector

I can meet you at 5:50 or so at Ivy Tech. And then bring it back to
you after the meeting. Just let me know where. Thank you. I'm going
to try to get a second project from somewhere so that I can have a
dual-head dual projector setup for the meeting.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 07:13:48PM GMT, Pawsitive Results [pawsitiveresults@gmail.com] said the following:
> I can still borrow work's projector--I just can't be at the meeting.
>
> Someone would have to meet me at Ivy Tech at shortly-before-6:00 on
> Tuesday, and we'd have to make arrangements for me to get the
> projector back that night as well.
>
> Hopefully, there's an easier way, but if not, and we can coordinate
> it, it's an option...
>
> Ana
>
> On 9/10/07, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone have a projector that I can use tommorow night? Preferably one
> > that does 1280x1024 or 1024x768. My normal source went on vacation and
> > decided to lock the cabinet.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Krenz
> > Bloomington Linux Users Group
> > http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > BLUG mailing list
> > BLUG@linuxfan.com
> > http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Tommorow's meeting will rock!

I'll bring my video camera, but I'll need someone to run the camera
and make it a bit more interesting than just sitting in one place.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2007 at 02:14:58AM GMT, Christopher E. Walker [cewalker@uchicago.edu] said the following:
> I'm out of the country and am quite sad that I won't be there at the
> next BLUG meeting.
>
> Is there a chance that anyone would be interested in videotaping the
> meeting for later viewing?
>
> Chris W.
>
> Mark Krenz wrote:
> > Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but it should be better than just
> >screen and vim. I plan on using some entertaining multimedia content
> >and also include some demonstrations of mencoder and kino, the video
> >editing programs. I'll show you how to rip DVD video in Linux. And also
> >I will show a bit of Blender, the 3D editor/raytracer. What you'll find
> >interesting is in how these are related to screen and vi. I'm also
> >going to try to bring my new workstation from home.
> >
> > Please try to make it. Thanks.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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