Thursday, February 19, 2009

Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

Sounds good.  

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
I wouldn't think of it as being you being a dolt.

With my reply, you might have thought I directed it to just you. My
wording *would* have been the same had I sent it to just you.

As I've seen thoughts like that crop up on the list before, though, I
wanted my response sent to the list as a whole.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07  78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:06:30PM -0500, Matt Zink wrote:
> Ha! - I AM a dolt.  Oh well - feel free to sound off on the topic if'n your
> interested. . .
> Sounds like a cool pres last night.



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iD8DBQFJnaGP3nFUM4WW+o4RAm64AJ9LPzEXWXPyckOqm1wO7r7yHkxllgCeP9OF
hklg2yrRMpigqTOFB4VGrHU=
=FNaJ
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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

I wouldn't think of it as being you being a dolt.

With my reply, you might have thought I directed it to just you. My
wording *would* have been the same had I sent it to just you.

As I've seen thoughts like that crop up on the list before, though, I
wanted my response sent to the list as a whole.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 01:06:30PM -0500, Matt Zink wrote:
> Ha! - I AM a dolt. Oh well - feel free to sound off on the topic if'n your
> interested. . .
> Sounds like a cool pres last night.

Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

Ha! - I AM a dolt.  Oh well - feel free to sound off on the topic if'n your interested. . . 
Sounds like a cool pres last night.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Mark Krenz <mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:48:15PM GMT, Matt Zink [matthewzin@gmail.com] said the following:
> We shoudl bring it up if> we haven't already.
>

 Hehe.  <DarkVoice>We're listening to your conversation....</DarkVoice>

 Yes, the mailing list defaults to reply to list.  This feature has been
amusing at times.  But I think its worth it.


--
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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 04:48:15PM GMT, Matt Zink [matthewzin@gmail.com] said the following:
> We shoudl bring it up if> we haven't already.
>

Hehe. <DarkVoice>We're listening to your conversation....</DarkVoice>

Yes, the mailing list defaults to reply to list. This feature has been
amusing at times. But I think its worth it.


--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

Yes I agree - and in addition to the attendence issue, someone has to maintain the videos - edit, upload, maintain, trackdown/find storage, etc.  Your solution seems to be a good middle ground.  We shoudl bring it up if we haven't already.

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:40:57AM -0500, Matt Zink wrote:
> I'm tempted to ask what the group thinks about shooting videos of some
> of these presentations somewhere, then hosting them for clods like me
> to watch later. But I know that isn't cool for many reasons! Glad to
> hear it was cool,

This has been brought up before. We've never done it, but other LUGs
have.

Unfortunately, the LUGs that have recorded their presentations and
posted them online find it actually serves to damage the group in two
different ways:

1. Fewer people actually make it to the meeting
2. The quality of the presentations suffer as a result

When the presentations are online, people fall in to the pattern of
being lazy and just watching from home. Then, when there isn't enough
people actually attending, the presenters don't feel the pressure to do
a good job and the presentations themselves start sucking.

Personally, I favor oral presentations with written reports on the
wiki. You get something from actually being there for the presentation,
but all the resources are retained online for future members and the
community at large. This is what I did with my presentation on theming a
while back.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:40:57AM -0500, Matt Zink wrote:
> I'm tempted to ask what the group thinks about shooting videos of some
> of these presentations somewhere, then hosting them for clods like me
> to watch later. But I know that isn't cool for many reasons! Glad to
> hear it was cool,

This has been brought up before. We've never done it, but other LUGs
have.

Unfortunately, the LUGs that have recorded their presentations and
posted them online find it actually serves to damage the group in two
different ways:

1. Fewer people actually make it to the meeting
2. The quality of the presentations suffer as a result

When the presentations are online, people fall in to the pattern of
being lazy and just watching from home. Then, when there isn't enough
people actually attending, the presenters don't feel the pressure to do
a good job and the presentations themselves start sucking.

Personally, I favor oral presentations with written reports on the
wiki. You get something from actually being there for the presentation,
but all the resources are retained online for future members and the
community at large. This is what I did with my presentation on theming a
while back.

Cheers,
Steven Black

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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

Very cool!
I'm tempted to ask what the group thinks about shooting videos of some of these presentations somewhere, then hosting them for clods like me to watch later.  But I know that isn't cool for many reasons!  Glad to hear it was cool,
Matt

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Barry Schatz <sorbetninja@gmail.com> wrote:
The meeting was great, though not very many people showed up. The
computer element wasn't as strong as I expected, but I'm not
complaining. I'm glad I went and I learned a lot!

-Barry

matthewzin@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey All:
> I've done a thing or two from various forums to address this issue to
> no avail (I'm kind of a dolt sometimes) - I'm not even sure what this
> means.  This is what I get whenever I try to install a program, or
> update what I already have:
> */E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a'
> to correct the problem.
> E: _cache->open() failed, please report.
> /*Any hints?  I recognize that my "call for help" on this list may be
> classified as misuse, so please don't hesitate to tell me off list.
> If you can give me some hints, please let me know that off list as well.
>
> BTW - how was the meeting tonight?  I was really sorry to have missed
> it.  I bet it was pretty awesome.
> Matt*/
> /*
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

The meeting was great, though not very many people showed up. The
computer element wasn't as strong as I expected, but I'm not
complaining. I'm glad I went and I learned a lot!

-Barry

matthewzin@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey All:
> I've done a thing or two from various forums to address this issue to
> no avail (I'm kind of a dolt sometimes) - I'm not even sure what this
> means. This is what I get whenever I try to install a program, or
> update what I already have:
> */E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a'
> to correct the problem.
> E: _cache->open() failed, please report.
> /*Any hints? I recognize that my "call for help" on this list may be
> classified as misuse, so please don't hesitate to tell me off list.
> If you can give me some hints, please let me know that off list as well.
>
> BTW - how was the meeting tonight? I was really sorry to have missed
> it. I bet it was pretty awesome.
> Matt*/
> /*
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

Thanks Michael - I'll try it and keep you posted.  I think I tried this, but perhaps left something out.
Thanks again - real cool of you to follow up!
Matt

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Michael Schultheiss <schultmc@cinlug.org> wrote:
matthewzin@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey All:
> I've done a thing or two from various forums to address this issue to no
> avail (I'm kind of a dolt sometimes) - I'm not even sure what this
> means.  This is what I get whenever I try to install a program, or
> update what I already have:
> */E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a'
> to correct the problem.
> E: _cache->open() failed, please report.
> /*Any hints?


Something interrupted a package installation in the past and you need to
run 'dpkg --configure -a' to fix the issue.

Open a terminal (Applications->Accessories->Terminal if you're running
Ubuntu) and type:

sudo dpkg --configure -a

and the interrupted package installation should complete.
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Re: [BLUG] A Little Help?

matthewzin@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey All:
> I've done a thing or two from various forums to address this issue to no
> avail (I'm kind of a dolt sometimes) - I'm not even sure what this
> means. This is what I get whenever I try to install a program, or
> update what I already have:
> */E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a'
> to correct the problem.
> E: _cache->open() failed, please report.
> /*Any hints?


Something interrupted a package installation in the past and you need to
run 'dpkg --configure -a' to fix the issue.

Open a terminal (Applications->Accessories->Terminal if you're running
Ubuntu) and type:

sudo dpkg --configure -a

and the interrupted package installation should complete.
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Wednesday, February 18, 2009

[BLUG] A Little Help?

Hey All:
I've done a thing or two from various forums to address this issue to no
avail (I'm kind of a dolt sometimes) - I'm not even sure what this
means. This is what I get whenever I try to install a program, or
update what I already have:
*/E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'dpkg --configure -a'
to correct the problem.
E: _cache->open() failed, please report.
/*Any hints? I recognize that my "call for help" on this list may be
classified as misuse, so please don't hesitate to tell me off list. If
you can give me some hints, please let me know that off list as well.

BTW - how was the meeting tonight? I was really sorry to have missed
it. I bet it was pretty awesome.
Matt*/
/*
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Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Re: [BLUG] Talk: Using computers to target voters

While you're thinking about politics and computers:

http://www.geek-pac.org/blog/

I heard somebody talk about this project at the last Ohio LinuxFest,
and it was interesting enough that I thought about it again when I
read tomorrow topic.

It's an actual Political Action Committee, and their "Voter
Information Project" software is free.

http://deki.geek-pac.org/Voter_Information_Project/Indiana

I hope you're all having a wonderful day!

Simón


On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Paul Purdom <pwp@cs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> On Feb. 18, 2009 (Wednesday) at 7pm Paul Purdom will speak at the Monroe
> County Library (Bloomington) on Using computers to target voters. This talk
> will be at an elementary level, both on politics and on computing. I will
> discuss various computational problems that arise in politics and discuss
> briefly tools that can be used to solve these problems. This talk will be
> from the view point that you will be producing your own tools for solving
> the problem of reaching voters with political messages. There are also
> commercial programs for these problems, but these will not be discussed
> unless some people in the audience know about that topic.
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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Friday, February 13, 2009

[SPAM:### 82%] Re: [BLUG] [SPAM:### 85%] unix time 1234567890

Oh man I'm glad I read this just in time. I almost missed it.

Quoting Jonathan North Washington <jonwashi@indiana.edu>:

> http://www.1234567890day.com/
>
> --
> Jonathan
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

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[SPAM:### 82%] Re: [BLUG] [SPAM:### 85%] unix time 1234567890

Oh is that finally here. For those of you who scoff at the idea that
Unix epoch time could have meaning, might not know when 1,000,000,000
unix epoch seconds happened. Sept. 9th, 2001.

And on 500,000,000 unix epoch seconds..... actually nothing happened. j/k


On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 07:36:44PM GMT, Jonathan North Washington [jonwashi@indiana.edu] said the following:
> http://www.1234567890day.com/
>
> --
> Jonathan
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
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[BLUG] [SPAM:### 85%] unix time 1234567890

http://www.1234567890day.com/

--
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Thursday, February 12, 2009

RE: [BLUG] look for encryption solution for a USB drive

http://www.ironkey.com/


--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
Network Administrator
Ivy Tech Community College
812.330.6156 (w) 812.391.3971 (m)

-----Original Message-----
From: blug-bounces@cs.indiana.edu [mailto:blug-bounces@cs.indiana.edu]
On Behalf Of Ben Shewmaker
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:48 AM
To: Bloomington LINUX Users Group
Subject: [BLUG] look for encryption solution for a USB drive

I use the computers on campus frequently and use a usb drive for
portable apps and to store my documents. I had been wanting to find
some sort of encryption solution for a while, but of course it takes me
actually losing a drive to decide to find one. Truecrypt looks pretty
cool, and they even have a traveler mode whereby you can encrypt parts
of the drive and have an executable version of truecrypt to decrypt the
files w/out having to install it. However, even this mode requires admin
access. Short of buying a usb drive with some sort of built in
encryption option, is there are software solution that doesn't require
root access? It would also be really nice if it wasn't windows only as
I use both pcs and macs on campus and ubuntu/vista at home.

thanks
Ben

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[BLUG] look for encryption solution for a USB drive

I use the computers on campus frequently and use a usb drive for portable apps and to store my documents.  I had been wanting to find some sort of encryption solution for a while, but of course it takes me actually losing a drive to decide to find one.  Truecrypt looks pretty cool, and they even have a traveler mode whereby you can encrypt parts of the drive and have an executable version of truecrypt to decrypt the files w/out having to install it. However, even this mode requires admin access.  Short of buying a usb drive with some sort of built in encryption option, is there are software solution that doesn't require root access?  It would also be really nice if it wasn't windows only as I use both pcs and macs on campus and ubuntu/vista at home.  

thanks
Ben

Re: [BLUG] Talk: Using computers to target voters

I look forward to your talk!

-Barry

Paul Purdom wrote:
> On Feb. 18, 2009 (Wednesday) at 7pm Paul Purdom will speak at the
> Monroe County Library (Bloomington) on Using computers to target
> voters. This talk will be at an elementary level, both on politics and
> on computing. I will discuss various computational problems that arise
> in politics and discuss briefly tools that can be used to solve these
> problems. This talk will be from the view point that you will be
> producing your own tools for solving the problem of reaching voters
> with political messages. There are also commercial programs for these
> problems, but these will not be discussed unless some people in the
> audience know about that topic.
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

_______________________________________________
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Sunday, February 8, 2009

[BLUG] Talk: Using computers to target voters

On Feb. 18, 2009 (Wednesday) at 7pm Paul Purdom will speak at the Monroe
County Library (Bloomington) on Using computers to target voters. This
talk will be at an elementary level, both on politics and on computing.
I will discuss various computational problems that arise in politics and
discuss briefly tools that can be used to solve these problems. This
talk will be from the view point that you will be producing your own
tools for solving the problem of reaching voters with political
messages. There are also commercial programs for these problems, but
these will not be discussed unless some people in the audience know
about that topic.
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] February Meeting

Barry Schatz wrote:
> According to the poll (filtering out Cooley's mistaken entry), there were 5
> OKs and 2 "If Need Be" votes for the 18th versus 3 OKs and 5 "If Need Be"
> votes for the 25th. Also, I'm changing my vote to "If Need Be" for the 18th,
> so that bumps the 18th up even more.
>
I am preparing for the 18th. I pretty much have the talk ready. Now I
just need to remember that day that I need to come.
(Unfortunately, in recent years I forget things like this about 10
percent of the time unless I take a lot of care to remember.)

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[BLUG] Re: February Meeting

Oh, and it will be at 7:00 pm as is our custom. I'll book the room from 6:30
in case anyone wants to show up early, but 7:00 is the official start time.

-Barry

On Sunday 08 February 2009 04:48:00 pm Barry Schatz wrote:
> Of the five dates that were available, one is now booked (by someone else)
> and two more are no good for Paul (who is presenting). Obviously, we need
> both a room and a presenter in order to have the meeting.
>
> The two remaining times are Web February 18 and Tuesday February 25. An
> additional caveat of the 25th is that the room isn't available until 7:30
> pm.
>
> According to the poll (filtering out Cooley's mistaken entry), there were 5
> OKs and 2 "If Need Be" votes for the 18th versus 3 OKs and 5 "If Need Be"
> votes for the 25th. Also, I'm changing my vote to "If Need Be" for the
> 18th, so that bumps the 18th up even more.
>
> We can play with the numbers to choose the right date, but I think the 18th
> would just work better. I'm going to schedule the 18th.
>
> Bottom Line: next meeting is scheduled for Wednesday the 18th of February
> (aka Wednesday of next week) unless you complain really loudly.
>
> -Barry


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[BLUG] February Meeting

Of the five dates that were available, one is now booked (by someone else) and
two more are no good for Paul (who is presenting). Obviously, we need both a
room and a presenter in order to have the meeting.

The two remaining times are Web February 18 and Tuesday February 25. An
additional caveat of the 25th is that the room isn't available until 7:30 pm.

According to the poll (filtering out Cooley's mistaken entry), there were 5
OKs and 2 "If Need Be" votes for the 18th versus 3 OKs and 5 "If Need Be"
votes for the 25th. Also, I'm changing my vote to "If Need Be" for the 18th,
so that bumps the 18th up even more.

We can play with the numbers to choose the right date, but I think the 18th
would just work better. I'm going to schedule the 18th.

Bottom Line: next meeting is scheduled for Wednesday the 18th of February (aka
Wednesday of next week) unless you complain really loudly.

-Barry
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Tuesday, February 3, 2009

Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 02:10:40PM -0500, Joe Auty wrote:
> I don't condemn people that don't pay for all of the content they use,
> as I don't myself (particularly with movies). We each have our own
> comfort level and the "things that we do" that are based on personal
> decisions, whether it is downloading everything you can get your hands
> on for free, or simply taking copies of music you borrow from friends.
> However, I must say that I do sometimes have difficulty with the way
> some people phrase certain justifications about their rights and
> freedoms that often seem to be cloaked in quasi-intellectual babble.

Personally, I feel that as someone who supports free software, and wants
companies to comply with free software licensing terms, it is my *duty*
to obey the licensing terms of the products I use.

Unlike, say, software patents where it is virtually impossible *not*
to violate any number of patents at any given time, copyright is very
clear. Software patents must be stopped, but copyright is both good
and right. Were it not for the advent of almost free distribution of
large amounts of data, I doubt it would be feasable to even discuss free
licenses for works that fall under traditional copyright laws.

I support freedom because freedom is good. Once you start violating
licensing terms you become two-faced, obeying licensing terms only when
it suits your own interests. This is no better than commercial companies
that fail to abide by the GPL when it doesn't suit their own ends. It is
not supporting freedom, as it doesn't support the rights of the original
authors/artists freedom to choose the license of their works.

If you want to promote free licenses you *must* support the decisions
of people to choose *not* to use free licenses. The case must be
won with reason and logic -- because it is clearly better for the
author/artist and the consumer when there is freedom. If it can't be won
with reason and logic, then there is a fundamental flaw and it needs to
be rethought.

I do like the Creative Commons licenses as it gives the artists the
flexability to choose what they are comfortable allowing done with their
work. That being said, consumers must actually obey those licenses,
otherwise it negates the ability of the artists to choose.

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

Steven Black wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:58:33AM -0500, Joe Auty wrote:
>>> I realized that fundamental tenants of freedom were seeping in to other
>>> areas of my life when I realized I was actually willing to not listen to
>>> music not licensed in a manner I was comfortable with.
>> Just what are your "fundamental tenants of freedom", Steven? Is it your
>> right to decide on behalf of the author how much their work is worth?
>
> No, no. I am quite opposed to violating copyright. It is the author's
> choice as to how they license the product. It is my choice as to whether
> I purchase the product. Nothing gives me the right to violate the
> copyright or the license. If I don't like the license, I have the choice
> as to whether to purchase it (and accept the license) or to pick another
> option.
>
> I was speaking of how the four tenants of free software have infiltrated
> the rest of my life:
>
> 1. The freedom to run the program for any purpose
> 2. The freedom to study and adapt the source code
> 3. The freedom to redistribute the program
> 4. The freedom to improve the program and release
>
> With regards to music, freedom #3 is the one that bothers people the
> most. The ability to share the music with friends, family and your other
> devices.
>
> However if the music industry was like the software industry, it would
> be illegal to adapt riffs or even chords from one song and use them in
> a song of your own. It would most certainly be illegal to practice a
> commercial song. (This would be freedom #2.)
>
> Freedom #1 also doesn't exist in the music industry with traditional
> copyright, as you need to pay careful attention to licensing of the
> music played at commercial establishments. This one doesn't impact me
> simply because I don't own a commercial establishment. While the RIAA
> have repeated tried to make it illegal to make mix tapes, it isn't
> realisticly possible. If such things became illegal, this freedom would
> also impact people more.
>
> Freedom #4 exists with some of the Creative Commons licenses. I've heard
> that NiN's "the slip" album is available in separate tracks so DJs (and
> other folks) can remix it. I've heard such things are available for some
> of the Magnatune artists, too. (Though I don't know how the NiN folks
> have done the licensing for that. It is an example of where that freedom
> becomes important to people.)
>

The whole mixing thing is where it gets interesting, isn't it? I like a
lot of Lawrence Lessig's ideas, but I wonder if these are generally more
applicable in a few specific areas?

The mixing/remixing stuff really seems like a phenomenon of the digital
era and so called "New Media". This whole idiom thrives around mixing
and remixing, and seems to be where these ideas fit the best. However, I
wonder if at times too much effort is made to sort of shoehorn them into
other artistic areas as well?

For instance, if I wrote this great commissioned piece of symphonic
music today, I don't think I'd want Joe Sixpack trying to remix it. Not
only would it probably not work very well, but I wouldn't want my music
being identifiable in any form but its original intended form. This
artwork is extremely precise and specific with how it is structured and
how it is intended to sound, as opposed to some music that is sort of
more conceptual and open-ended. I would be even more opposed if this
person managed to make a lot of money from my work in this context,
hypothetically speaking...

I know this is a very vague and lame example, but my point is that some
works just scream mixing and remixing, while others don't. I don't think
that we can just try to apply our ideological opinions about what works
for certain digital works to art in general. It varies, and ultimately I
feel that it should be at the discretion of the artist, like you said.
What I like about the CC licenses is that it gives artists the ability
to choose whether they want their art to be mixed, as I understand them.
Artists should be made aware of these sorts of options and made aware as
to the benefits of evolving and mutating ideas in the hands of the
world, but sometimes I feel that these ideas are meant to represent a
complete replacement for the old ways, where sometimes the old ways may
still be best.

> Cheers,
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> This is more of a short rant than anything else, but I was reading an
> interesting book,
> http://www.amazon.com/Brain-That-Changes-Itself-Frontiers/dp/067003830X
> about brain plasticity. One of the people interviewed for the book was
> Michael Merzenich, a neuroscientist who among other things, started a
> company called Posit Science that produces brain training software. I
> thought I'd go take a look at what they had to offer. Their main
> offering Brain Fitness Program classic looked at least somewhat
> interesting until I found the pricing. It's $400! And their other
> offering, In Sight, is also $400. If you buy both, you can save a
> whopping $100 and get both programs for $700! The only demo of either
> product is a little flash demo of InSight and while the programs were
> developed after scientific research I can't help but think $400 is far
> too excessive. I want to try their software, but I am most certainly
> not plopping down $400 for that opportunity. Perhaps I am not the target
> audience for their company, maybe they aim to sell volume licenses to
> larger groups.

> But still, it begs the question, how much is too much
> when it comes to the price of software?

If enough people feel the same way as you do, then they won't sell
enough to recoup costs and make a profit. *That* will be what determines
the "how much" that's "too much".

I suspect the target market for this software is large corporate
training. In this economy, that's gonna be weak. My guess is you could
negotiate a much more favorable price directly.

--
Mark Warner
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Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
>> Steven Black wrote:
>>> Heh.
>>>
>>> I realized that fundamental tenants of freedom were seeping in to other
>>> areas of my life when I realized I was actually willing to not listen to
>>> music not licensed in a manner I was comfortable with.
>>>
>>> What is the difference between charging $400 vs $40, when it is the
>>> fundamental practice that is flawed?
>>>
>> Just what are your "fundamental tenants of freedom", Steven? Is it your
>> right to decide on behalf of the author how much their work is worth?
>>
>> --
>> Joe Auty
>> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
>> http://www.netmusician.org
>> joe@netmusician.org
>
> I won't speak for Steven, but I'll share what it means to me and thus
> what I believe he meant.
>
> The fundamental tenets of freedom are the freedoms to use, study,
> re-distribute and modify. See freedomdefined.org for a more thorough
> walk-through of how these apply to cultural works such as music.
>
> And yes, it's my right to decide how much an author's work is worth.
> When I don't buy a work I've decided it's worth nothing, when I do buy
> a work I've agreed with the seller that it's worth whatever I pay.
>

Exactly...

Look, I'll just be candid here (and I'm not only addressing Steven or
Simon here), I'm generally at least a little left leaning, so consider
what I'm about to say as not being overly Republican/Conservative
influenced, even though it will probably sound so in terms of economic
philosophy...

This sort of discussion about freedom in the context of intellectual
property adds an unnecessary layer of complexity here, I think, and this
is coming from a guy who generally enjoys complex and nuanced opinions
in general. All of this sort of language seems to me like a dressed up
way of basically acknowledging the power and benefits of a free market
system.

That is, like Simon has said, it's your right to decide how much
something is worth to you, and you vote with your own dollar. If
something is overpriced yet in demand, this invites competition. If
something is overpriced and not in demand, nobody is making you buy this
product. This is simple supply and demand economics.

Where things get rather murky is the exploitive relationships of the big
record labels and their musicians/bands, but it bothers me that some
would decide on behalf of the artist that the CD they produced is not
worth $15, and so therefore they are going to steal it instead. There
are any number of reasons why an artist will work with and/or stay with
record label x, but ultimately it is their choice to work with the label
under their contractual conditions. There are a lot of things I would
like to change about these relationships, but it is not my place as the
consumer to do so. It is my right to not buy this music for $15, but
that is as far as my rights go. With the increase of independent record
labels that are generally less heavy handed than the big ones, I grow
less and less patient with rational that relates to why it is okay to
steal music.

I don't condemn people that don't pay for all of the content they use,
as I don't myself (particularly with movies). We each have our own
comfort level and the "things that we do" that are based on personal
decisions, whether it is downloading everything you can get your hands
on for free, or simply taking copies of music you borrow from friends.
However, I must say that I do sometimes have difficulty with the way
some people phrase certain justifications about their rights and
freedoms that often seem to be cloaked in quasi-intellectual babble.

Just my two cents, and to be clear, I'm not making any accusations
relating to anything anybody has said here, I'm just speaking in very
general terms...


> Simón
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:58:33AM -0500, Joe Auty wrote:
> > I realized that fundamental tenants of freedom were seeping in to other
> > areas of my life when I realized I was actually willing to not listen to
> > music not licensed in a manner I was comfortable with.
>
> Just what are your "fundamental tenants of freedom", Steven? Is it your
> right to decide on behalf of the author how much their work is worth?

No, no. I am quite opposed to violating copyright. It is the author's
choice as to how they license the product. It is my choice as to whether
I purchase the product. Nothing gives me the right to violate the
copyright or the license. If I don't like the license, I have the choice
as to whether to purchase it (and accept the license) or to pick another
option.

I was speaking of how the four tenants of free software have infiltrated
the rest of my life:

1. The freedom to run the program for any purpose
2. The freedom to study and adapt the source code
3. The freedom to redistribute the program
4. The freedom to improve the program and release

With regards to music, freedom #3 is the one that bothers people the
most. The ability to share the music with friends, family and your other
devices.

However if the music industry was like the software industry, it would
be illegal to adapt riffs or even chords from one song and use them in
a song of your own. It would most certainly be illegal to practice a
commercial song. (This would be freedom #2.)

Freedom #1 also doesn't exist in the music industry with traditional
copyright, as you need to pay careful attention to licensing of the
music played at commercial establishments. This one doesn't impact me
simply because I don't own a commercial establishment. While the RIAA
have repeated tried to make it illegal to make mix tapes, it isn't
realisticly possible. If such things became illegal, this freedom would
also impact people more.

Freedom #4 exists with some of the Creative Commons licenses. I've heard
that NiN's "the slip" album is available in separate tracks so DJs (and
other folks) can remix it. I've heard such things are available for some
of the Magnatune artists, too. (Though I don't know how the NiN folks
have done the licensing for that. It is an example of where that freedom
becomes important to people.)

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Joe Auty <joe@netmusician.org> wrote:
> Steven Black wrote:
>> Heh.
>>
>> I realized that fundamental tenants of freedom were seeping in to other
>> areas of my life when I realized I was actually willing to not listen to
>> music not licensed in a manner I was comfortable with.
>>
>> What is the difference between charging $400 vs $40, when it is the
>> fundamental practice that is flawed?
>>
>
> Just what are your "fundamental tenants of freedom", Steven? Is it your
> right to decide on behalf of the author how much their work is worth?
>
> --
> Joe Auty
> NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
> http://www.netmusician.org
> joe@netmusician.org

I won't speak for Steven, but I'll share what it means to me and thus
what I believe he meant.

The fundamental tenets of freedom are the freedoms to use, study,
re-distribute and modify. See freedomdefined.org for a more thorough
walk-through of how these apply to cultural works such as music.

And yes, it's my right to decide how much an author's work is worth.
When I don't buy a work I've decided it's worth nothing, when I do buy
a work I've agreed with the seller that it's worth whatever I pay.

Simón

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BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

Steven Black wrote:
> Heh.
>
> I realized that fundamental tenants of freedom were seeping in to other
> areas of my life when I realized I was actually willing to not listen to
> music not licensed in a manner I was comfortable with.
>
> What is the difference between charging $400 vs $40, when it is the
> fundamental practice that is flawed?
>

Just what are your "fundamental tenants of freedom", Steven? Is it your
right to decide on behalf of the author how much their work is worth?


> Cheers,
> Steven Black
>
> On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0500, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
>> This is more of a short rant than anything else, but I was reading an
>> interesting book, http://www.amazon.com/Brain-That-Changes-Itself-Frontiers/dp/
>> 067003830X about brain plasticity. One of the people interviewed for the book
>> was Michael Merzenich, a neuroscientist who among other things, started a
>> company called Posit Science that produces brain training software. I thought
>> I'd go take a look at what they had to offer. Their main offering Brain
>> Fitness Program classic looked at least somewhat interesting until I found the
>> pricing. It's $400! And their other offering, In Sight, is also $400. If you
>> buy both, you can save a whopping $100 and get both programs for $700! The
>> only demo of either product is a little flash demo of InSight and while the
>> programs were developed after scientific research I can't help but think $400
>> is far too excessive. I want to try their software, but I am most certainly
>> not plopping down $400 for that opportunity. Perhaps I am not the target
>> audience for their company, maybe they aim to sell volume licenses to larger
>> groups. But still, it begs the question, how much is too much when it comes to
>> the price of software?
>>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

Re: [BLUG] insane software prices

Heh.

I realized that fundamental tenants of freedom were seeping in to other
areas of my life when I realized I was actually willing to not listen to
music not licensed in a manner I was comfortable with.

What is the difference between charging $400 vs $40, when it is the
fundamental practice that is flawed?

Cheers,
Steven Black

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 11:10:16AM -0500, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> This is more of a short rant than anything else, but I was reading an
> interesting book, http://www.amazon.com/Brain-That-Changes-Itself-Frontiers/dp/
> 067003830X about brain plasticity. One of the people interviewed for the book
> was Michael Merzenich, a neuroscientist who among other things, started a
> company called Posit Science that produces brain training software. I thought
> I'd go take a look at what they had to offer. Their main offering Brain
> Fitness Program classic looked at least somewhat interesting until I found the
> pricing. It's $400! And their other offering, In Sight, is also $400. If you
> buy both, you can save a whopping $100 and get both programs for $700! The
> only demo of either product is a little flash demo of InSight and while the
> programs were developed after scientific research I can't help but think $400
> is far too excessive. I want to try their software, but I am most certainly
> not plopping down $400 for that opportunity. Perhaps I am not the target
> audience for their company, maybe they aim to sell volume licenses to larger
> groups. But still, it begs the question, how much is too much when it comes to
> the price of software?
>
>

> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

[BLUG] insane software prices

This is more of a short rant than anything else, but I was reading an interesting book, http://www.amazon.com/Brain-That-Changes-Itself-Frontiers/dp/067003830X about brain plasticity.  One of the people interviewed for the book was Michael Merzenich, a neuroscientist who among other things, started a company called Posit Science that produces brain training software.  I thought I'd go take a look at what they had to offer.  Their main offering Brain Fitness Program classic looked at least somewhat interesting until I found the pricing.  It's $400!  And their other offering, In Sight, is also $400.  If you buy both, you can save a whopping $100 and get both programs for $700!  The only demo of either product is a little flash demo of InSight and while the programs were developed after scientific research I can't help but think $400 is far too excessive.  I want to try their software, but I am most certainly not plopping down $400 for that opportunity. Perhaps I am not the target audience for their company, maybe they aim to sell volume licenses to larger groups.  But still, it begs the question, how much is too much when it comes to the price of software?