Friday, June 19, 2009

Re: [BLUG] usability

These debates sound like many political debates to me, where people
debate their political philosophies of unobtrusive government, the free
market, the philosophy behind habeous corpeous (sp?!) etc. to the point
where any discussion of stuff that seems to threaten whatever it is that
you believe in philosophically is a complete non-starter.

This is true for computing and politics as well, I think, and that is at
some point it makes logical sense to put aside your philosophy and
accept some imperfection from time to time when you find something that
actually works. For instance, I wish we could agree upon what we ought
to do with the economy based on the actual math and sound, sober,
academically sound, purely rational economic theory rather than letting
our feelings and philosophical viewpoints cloud things as much as they
often seem to.

Don't get me wrong, philosophy definitely has its place, but it needs to
be kept in check. Returning to computing, I spend most of my time web
programming and working on my servers. I'm perfectly willing to cave on
my philosophical ideas of computing when it comes to what I use on the
desktop (OS X), because frankly I don't really want to spend time
tinkering with my desktop because that deters me from what I really want
to do (and make money doing). I use OS X because it just works for me,
more so than anything else. Without trying to sound condescending, I
don't know why more people aren't more like this and less religious and
philosophical when it comes to their computing.

I don't really connect with many Mac users though. I've encountered Mac
users that insist on using OS X apps that are perfect OS X citizens and
do everything "the Mac way". For instance, I use Postbox over OS X Mail
because frankly OS X Mail is a piece of shit IMAP client. This used to
manifest as a problem in bogging my computer down and making it
inconvenient for me to do some things (I won't bore you with the
details). It would be very, very nice if Postbox supported the OS X
Dictionary, Keychain, Address Book (I think it is partial support
there), but I don't see the logic in abandoning what works (Postbox) for
something that is philosophically in tune with the ideals of what a GUI
should be like in OS X.

Steven Black wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Barry Schatz wrote:
>> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
>> [...]
>> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
>> -Linus
>> [...]
>
> This is a real gem.
>
> |"Usability" is an issue only if you can do something at all. But if you
> |can't do the thing at all, it's pointless to talk about usability: the
> |thing is BY DEFINITION not usable if it cannot be used for a specific
> |task.
> |
> |[...]
> |
> |There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For
> |example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I
> |want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and
> |even simpler printer needs.
> |
> |So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me
> |in your "majority".
> |
> |But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part
> |of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that
> |the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually
> |overlook.
> |
> |For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my
> |mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get
> |really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your
> |majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority
> |of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
> |
> |In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It
> |can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in
> |general.
>
> Oh, it is a bit ranty, but also delicious.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
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http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] usability (was: case insensitivity and more)

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05:28PM -0400, Barry Schatz wrote:
> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
> [...]
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
> -Linus
> [...]

This is a real gem.

|"Usability" is an issue only if you can do something at all. But if you
|can't do the thing at all, it's pointless to talk about usability: the
|thing is BY DEFINITION not usable if it cannot be used for a specific
|task.
|
|[...]
|
|There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For
|example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I
|want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and
|even simpler printer needs.
|
|So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me
|in your "majority".
|
|But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part
|of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that
|the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually
|overlook.
|
|For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my
|mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get
|really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your
|majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority
|of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.
|
|In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It
|can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in
|general.

Oh, it is a bit ranty, but also delicious.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> It's not that these features are deal-breaker important to him, per
> se. However, their presence indicates the language was designed from
> the ground up with the same priorities he has, and their absence
> indicates that the language was not designed with his same priorities
> in mind.
>

Thank you, as you hit the nail on head. I want to use a system that
goes along with the way that I think. If I didn't mind changing my idea
of "the right way" to do things I would just be a sheeple and use
Windows instead of Linux. The reality of it is that I do have an
opinion of "the right way" to do things and OSX violates that opinion
too much for me to want to use it.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes
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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Jordan Thevenow-Harrison<jtth@jtth.net> wrote:
> Not to derail the thread or anything, but do this to enable case sensitivity
> (which can cause problems if an app developer is lazy or did something by
> hand that's usually done by xcode, and changed some capitalization).
> 1. Back up to time machine.
> 2. Use the Leopard install disk to reformat your drive to HFS+ Case
> Sensitive
> 3. Use the Restore from Time Machine backup option from (one of the) menubar
> (items) on the Leopard install disk.
>
> There's an app that's $50 that does it in place, or so it purports to, but I
> wouldn't trust it. There's no other way to do it.
> --
> Jordan Thevenow-Harrison
> jtth@jtth.net

I kind of think that Scott's original complaint wasn't specifically
that he needs that feature and if he could have it he would be sold on
OSX.

It sounded more like how my astro-physicist friend criticizes
programming languages:

"Do you need more than a single character to do exponents? Do you have
to import a library before you can do sin, cos, and tan? Then it's not
for me."

It's not that these features are deal-breaker important to him, per
se. However, their presence indicates the language was designed from
the ground up with the same priorities he has, and their absence
indicates that the language was not designed with his same priorities
in mind.

Just a thought.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Not to derail the thread or anything, but do this to enable case
sensitivity (which can cause problems if an app developer is lazy or
did something by hand that's usually done by xcode, and changed some
capitalization).
1. Back up to time machine.
2. Use the Leopard install disk to reformat your drive to HFS+ Case
Sensitive
3. Use the Restore from Time Machine backup option from (one of the)
menubar (items) on the Leopard install disk.

There's an app that's $50 that does it in place, or so it purports to,
but I wouldn't trust it. There's no other way to do it.
--
Jordan Thevenow-Harrison
jtth@jtth.net

On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Barry Schatz wrote:

> Mark Krenz wrote:
>> I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
>> some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
>> with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".
>>
>> As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
>> and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
>> people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that
>> pesky
>> http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Pros: Shiny.
>>
>> Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
>> name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.
>>
>>
> And in that thread of usability-versus-users:
>
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001588.html
> -Linus (the famous "switch to KDE" post)
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001592.html
> -Linus
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
> -Linus
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001596.html
> -Tim Witham
>
> -Barry
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug

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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more

Mark Krenz wrote:
> I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
> some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
> with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".
>
> As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
> and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
> people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that pesky
> http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Pros: Shiny.
>
> Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
> name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.
>
>
And in that thread of usability-versus-users:

https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001588.html
-Linus (the famous "switch to KDE" post)
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001592.html
-Linus
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001593.html
-Linus
https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/001596.html
-Tim Witham

-Barry
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Re: [BLUG] Mac owner

I know I'm addressing an older post, but my comments appear more
relevant this way.

Scott Blaydes wrote:
> The damn thing wasn't case sensitive. In my mind file, File, and FiLe
> are all referring to different things, but not in OSX. This is one
> bastardization of FreeBSD (that Apple used to model OSX/Darwin off of)
> that I can not accept. Once I found this problem I couldn't take the OS
> seriously anymore, it was just a toy.
>
> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>
>
I go back and forth on case sensitivity.

If you forced all your filenames (and everything is a file in Unix) to
uppercase, would you have any name collisions? Not likely. It's asking
for trouble when you have a file and a directory separated by letter
case because it's such a subtle difference when typing. If you didn't
hold the shift key at the right instant, you accidentally deleted the
wrong thing. If you have two files named File.txt and file.txt, there is
something wrong.

But then again, it matters to both preserve case sensitivity and to keep
the filename code simple. The filesystem regards 'A' and 'a' as
different characters because they have different byte, ascii and UTF
codes. Treating them the same while preserving identity introduces
unneeded complexity to the filesystem code when most of us would rather
work around the issue and have simpler, faster filesystem operations.
Moreover, case sensitivity allows you to describe file type more
succinctly. For example, I leave the first letter of regular filenames
lowercase but I capitalize the first letter of directory names.
Depending on the circumstances, I'll put a filename in all uppercase to
convey importance. I also use capital letters to show word boundaries to
clear up ambiguities (there's a tech help site with a hyphen in the url
so you know they don't perform gender reassignment surgery).

In the end, I don't care significantly one way or the other. I'll use
whatever is the standard on the system I'm using. If you care enough to
think less of a system over such a detail, then this is what I think of
you: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/mundane-name

-Barry
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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 04:48:14PM GMT, Steven Black [blacks@indiana.edu] said the following:
>
> "Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."

Or if you have $3, you can buy a working Pentium 4 2.8GHz at a garage
sale:

http://www.twitpic.com/6s0c3

> People who think in terms of bytes see case insensitivity as silly.
> People who think in terms of letters, however, see it as only logical. I
> fully imagine a case-insensitive home directory to crop up on the list
> of GNOME requirements eventually. It's an ease of use thing.

I could go on as to my reasons why this annoys me and some of you will
just think I'm ranting, but it comes down to this.

Learn to be precise. Computers are not people. I don't care if you can
make them like people, they still won't be people. So its best to just
learn how computers are, and be happy with it.

I'm not saying don't be user friendly, that's fine and helpful, but
some people push things so far that they expect to eventually wind up
with a 1 key keyboard that says "Do my stuff".

As an example, I used my time modem to login to the internet2 in 2022
and pulled this review from cdweggbuy (yes, that's a URL because
people thought it was ok to remove gTLDs and also got rid of that pesky
http://) for a VeriLogiSoft Computer Interface device.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Pros: Shiny.

Cons: Has too many buttons and you have to press them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

How did they write the review? Sometimes people go too far in the
name of ease of use and forget that we have brains.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

I believe case sensitivity in Mac OS X is a feature of the HFS+ file
system but it is disabled by default. You can enable it by Mac OS
Extended (case sensitive) as the file system type when you format a
volume in Disk Utility. However I'm not sure if there is a way to
enable this after a volume is formatted or for the boot volume.

Andrew

On Jun 19, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Michael Schultheiss wrote:

> Steven Black wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49:38PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>>
>> I checked, as I thought I'd seen an option about it...
>> * http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=2003111009264885
>> * http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21400?viewlocale=en_US
>>
>> Mac OS X Server as of 10.3 had the capacity to have case-sensitive
>> files. Now, journalling started out in Mac OS X Server 10.2, but
>> didn't
>> make it to the desktop until 10.3, so it is possible that the latest
>> versions of Mac OS X Desktop now have the option to be case
>> sensitive.
>
> I've got a 10.5.7 Desktop and after a few minutes of poking around
> Google and the OS X interface I didn't see a way to enable case
> sensitivity. I typically run Linux on my Apple hardware but need at
> least one OS X box for work.
>
>>> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>>
>> "Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."
>
> Stupid inflation - last time I saw that it was a nickel :)
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

Steven Black wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49:38PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
>
> I checked, as I thought I'd seen an option about it...
> * http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=2003111009264885
> * http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21400?viewlocale=en_US
>
> Mac OS X Server as of 10.3 had the capacity to have case-sensitive
> files. Now, journalling started out in Mac OS X Server 10.2, but didn't
> make it to the desktop until 10.3, so it is possible that the latest
> versions of Mac OS X Desktop now have the option to be case sensitive.

I've got a 10.5.7 Desktop and after a few minutes of poking around
Google and the OS X interface I didn't see a way to enable case
sensitivity. I typically run Linux on my Apple hardware but need at
least one OS X box for work.

> > Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.
>
> "Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."

Stupid inflation - last time I saw that it was a nickel :)
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Re: [BLUG] case insensitivity and more (was: Mac owner)

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49:38PM -0500, Scott Blaydes wrote:
> Dave Cooley wrote:
> > In some ways, Apple screwed up BSD. Things aren't always where they
> > should be and don't always behave how you expect them to behave (for the
> > BSD user, to an extent; let alone for a Linux user like me).

The only way I can contest this is to say: Pretty much every commercial
BSD-derived Unix-like system has behavior quirks unique to that system.
Did Apple screw it up more than Sun? More than DEC? (etc)?

> I wanted to like OSX really badly. I have Apple fanboy friends who had
> been telling me how great it is. You could even consider me a NeXT
> fanboy, weeping at memories of my mono-slab. I got a used G4 at a
> university auction down here in Texas, so I bought a retail version of
> 10.3 for it. Everything was going well until I got to the command line.
> The damn thing wasn't case sensitive. In my mind file, File, and FiLe
> are all referring to different things, but not in OSX. This is one
> bastardization of FreeBSD (that Apple used to model OSX/Darwin off of)
> that I can not accept. Once I found this problem I couldn't take the OS
> seriously anymore, it was just a toy.

I checked, as I thought I'd seen an option about it...
* http://www.macfixit.com/staticpages/index.php?page=2003111009264885
* http://support.apple.com/kb/TA21400?viewlocale=en_US

Mac OS X Server as of 10.3 had the capacity to have case-sensitive
files. Now, journalling started out in Mac OS X Server 10.2, but didn't
make it to the desktop until 10.3, so it is possible that the latest
versions of Mac OS X Desktop now have the option to be case sensitive.

It was no more than a toy OS for years. The case insensitivity thing is
basically the last remnant from those times.

You have to take some of it within the context of where they're coming
from. They only recently got filetypes-by-extension. Previously
filetypes were mystical things embedded within the file. You could name
a JPEG file "soup.txt" and when you clicked on it, it would open the
graphics program that created it.

So now you're saying that a .JPEG and a .jpeg and a .Jpeg file are
all different file types? This is a *big* jump from the "what's an
extension?" view-point they still had a few years back.

I mean, when I moved to Linux I thought it was odd that .c were C
files and .C were C++ files. I adjusted to it quickly, but then I was
expecting things to be different. (How many people on this list even
know about this?)


As an aside, I checked mke2fs to see if (perchance) ext2/3 (I'm
using Ubuntu 8.04 LTS on this machine, so no ext4) had support for
case-insensitive filenames. I didn't really think it would be the case.
This is why NTFS has that goofy case-conversion table embedded in the
filesystem, after all.

It is hard to do it right -- this is why XML is case sensitive, but SGML
was not. I'm serious about it being hard, too. For instance, in German
the names Eßen and ESSEN are the same if you ignore the case, and if
you capitalize Eßen in to EßEN then it is exactly like capitalizing
my name as BLAck. The ß letter is exclusively lower case, and to
capitalize it it becomes two S's. Google is totally case insensitive,
allowing different letters in a word to have different capitalizations,
so a search for eßen returns words that match the regular expression
[eE](ß|[sS][sS])[eE][nN], which is what you would expect with properly
functioning case insensitivity.

Anyway, I found that mke2fs has a "-T fs-type" option which allows
for predefined "optimal filesystem parameters" specified in
/etc/mke2fs.conf, the defaults which include "small, floppy, news,
largefile, and largefile4."

What struck me was the "floppy" option. ext2fs historically was a
horrible option for floppies due to the filesystem over-head. Folks
would recommend Minix, VFAT or Tar over ext2. Of course, this is sort of
a moot issue when pretty much no one has (or uses) floppies anymore. It
was just something that struck me.

> Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.

"Here's a dime. Go buy yourself a real computer."

Ultimately, every OS sucks. It is the acceptance of this truth that
allows me to get through my day.

People who think in terms of bytes see case insensitivity as silly.
People who think in terms of letters, however, see it as only logical. I
fully imagine a case-insensitive home directory to crop up on the list
of GNOME requirements eventually. It's an ease of use thing.

The easiest way for case insensitivity to happen quickly is full support
of JFS as the root partition from the pretty graphical installers. Check
mkfs.jfs and the -O option.

I could also see a fairly simple configuration option
using FUSE. ("case insensitive on purpose file system",
http://freshmeat.net/projects/ciopfs/ ) Of course, with GNOME I'd then
expect this to become the default, and a GCONF setting required to
prevent logging in from overlaying case-insensitivity on to your home
directory.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Thursday, June 18, 2009

Re: [BLUG] Mac owner

Dave Cooley wrote:
> In some ways, Apple screwed up BSD. Things aren't always where they
> should be and don't always behave how you expect them to behave (for the
> BSD user, to an extent; let alone for a Linux user like me).

I wanted to like OSX really badly. I have Apple fanboy friends who had
been telling me how great it is. You could even consider me a NeXT
fanboy, weeping at memories of my mono-slab. I got a used G4 at a
university auction down here in Texas, so I bought a retail version of
10.3 for it. Everything was going well until I got to the command line.
The damn thing wasn't case sensitive. In my mind file, File, and FiLe
are all referring to different things, but not in OSX. This is one
bastardization of FreeBSD (that Apple used to model OSX/Darwin off of)
that I can not accept. Once I found this problem I couldn't take the OS
seriously anymore, it was just a toy.

Sometimes I feel like a Unix grey beard.

Thank you,
Scott Blaydes


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Re: [BLUG] Mac owner

You'll get no guff from me, Mark- my laptop (work-owned) is a Mabook
(currently running OSX and Windows 7), and I've supported Mac users as
part of my job for the last decade (off and on).

In some ways, Apple screwed up BSD. Things aren't always where they
should be and don't always behave how you expect them to behave (for the
BSD user, to an extent; let alone for a Linux user like me).

In other ways, they made a super-nice, super-friendly OS out of BSD.
I'm really pleased in general, and the hardware is pretty nice too. I
LOVE my multi-touch touchpad, and the magnetic power cord connector is
probably the best idea in laptops in years (OK, wi-fi aside anyway).

The minis are nice too. Definitely not a high-performer as Apple
hardware goes, but not bad either- it's a darn fine machine and looks
good in your living room (or conference room, as the case may be).
Pretty affordable (by Apple standards) too.

Cooley

Ana Greavu wrote:
> Hey! I resemble that remark!
>
> The minis are sweet little machines! Sleek, lovely, functional.
>
> A heavily groomed little prancing show-dog.
>
> Rather than the highly variable, hard-working, "I can do anything"
> border collie that a Linux computer is...
>
> Ana
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Mark Krenz<mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>
>> Yesterday I bought a Mac Mini
>>
>> *ducks* (quack!)
>>
>> Seriously though, I've never owned any Apple computer before. I've
>> used them of course, but I think owning one will be interesting. No,
>> its not for my own desktop, its for Suso so that we can support Mac
>> users better and we also decided to use it for our conference room
>> computer.
>>
>> Anyways, its already been interesting to experience computers again in
>> a different way. The Mac is like a little box of happiness and to make
>> you a happy computer user. While Linux may make you a happy computer
>> user, the drive is different and the happiness comes for different
>> reasons. Like meditating, you can't see the happiness from the outside.
>> With the Mac, its like looking at a glowing orb.
>>
>> --
>> Mark Krenz
>> Bloomington Linux Users Group
>> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>


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Re: [BLUG] iPhone and Android


  If anyone is really bored, the Indiana code regarding possession of a police radio is IC 35-44-3-12.  Kevin _______________________________________________ BLUG mailing list BLUG@linuxfan.com http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug    
For those who are curious, the following link takes you to IC 35-44-3-12

73,
Walker

http://qts-online.com/gary/indianacode.doc

Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Simón Ruiz wrote:
> And yeah, my protest plan in this democratish capitalistish society is
> to buy an Android phone. We're waiting to see what handsets come out
> over the summer, but both my wife and I are pretty well decided on
> Android as an interface.

I'm pretty decided on an Android phone as well. My current cell phone
contract is up at the end of November but I've concidered paying the
cancellation fee and getting a G1 soon since T-mobile's cheaper than
Verizon and the added benefit of a mostly open phone (versus my current
proprietary phone) outweigh the cost of cancelling my current contract.

I haven't been too impressed with touchscreen only phones - I hope the
G1 is still available in November or whatever other Android phones come
out between now and then also include keyboards (I know the G2 is
supposed to be touch only from what I've seen).
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Re: [BLUG] iPhone and Android

Steven Black wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:11:07AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
>
>> Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some
>> fashion, but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial
>> program may do damage to their phone? Or maybe I should get an android
>> phone and support the competition. . .
>>
>
> If you ignore the "security" issue that people float around, there
> is also one very good reason for Apple to not do that: Market Share.
> Right now, they can have offical Apple-produced applications and stop
> third-party applications in those fields from the get-go.
>
> And truthfully, unoffical leaks of how to unlock your iPhone *is*
> Apple's way of allowing 3rd party applications while also stating it is
> an unofficial program that may do damage to their phone, and that by
> simply preparing to install it you are voiding the warranty.
>
> Truthfully, the Android platform isn't all that open. It has an open
> development environment, but it isn't open in the sense that you can't
> replace any product that ships with it with a third-party product. You
> can not, in any real sense, "use the product how you see fit." This is
> less a matter of security than it is a matter that the US government
> controls the airways.
>
Every time I install an app on my Nokia S60 phone, it wants me to check
the certificate the app is signed with. I can make it allow untrusted
certificates, but I've never found an app that was unsigned in the first
place. I cringe when I install Google's (closed-source) mail and maps
applications, but the utility outweighs the fear. I really should get
into S60 development (it's open source now!) and write my own. It would
be a good exercise in both open source dev and embedded dev.
> And the US government *does* control the airways. In particular the FCC.
> In the common case, the standard Internet wireless protocols can use
> additional channels outside of the US. In the US, some of the spectrum
> is used by the US military. In another case, simply listening to some
> radio channels is restricted, as you can not legally listen to police
> channels in a car.
>
I wonder why the government hasn't moved to encrypting the radio traffic
it needs kept secret. Digital two-way radio is a mature technology and
shouldn't be that much more expensive (though I can see why it would
be). Encryption would be the next logical step. You can't keep people
from listening to the airwaves any more than you can keep people from
reading phone system repair manuals (blue boxes, anyone?).
> Now, imagine a person has a simple phone-sized device that can
> truthfully freely access the airways. Police channels via your bluetooth
> headset? Some cell phones actually include AM/FM radios. It isn't that
> far-fetched. Ignoring the military frequencies, you also have purposes
> for such a device which could include simple cell phone jamming. If
> anyone could have an easy hand-held cell phone jammer then not only
> would it be common for folks to have them in movie theaters, but
> virtually any criminal worth their salt would have one.
>
The movie theaters and prisons are very eager to have their own
cell-phone jammers. The problem is the jamming signal leaks and affects
the service of innocent bystanders. Keeping that problem under control
is rightfully under the FCC's charter.
I think movie theaters should be built with materials that passively
block the cell signal, but that is probably prohibitively expensive.
Also, it could be life-threatening if a doctor was on-call while
watching a movie (but you shouldn't have plans when you're on-call).
Prisons are an even trickier case, because law enforcement wants to be
able to tap the illicit phone calls. If they block the signal, they lose
a good source of intelligence.
> This is why I'm actually headed toward getting an open
> mobile-internet-device connected via bluetooth to a closed-platform cell
> phone.
>
My Nokia n810 tethers to my Nokia cellphone with minimal configuration.
I'm still working on connecting my laptop to the cellphone via the USB
cable, but I'm close. I'll post about that when I get it working.
> I want a fully open hand-held device, but it does not have to be the
> same device that uses the cell-phone network, and I do not require my
> wireless device's firmware to be open.
>
I've heard good things about the Freerunner. If you do need a completely
open device, that would be it.

-Barry
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Re: [BLUG] iPhone and Android (was: opera unite)

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
> And the US government *does* control the airways. In particular the FCC.
> In the common case, the standard Internet wireless protocols can use
> additional channels outside of the US. In the US, some of the spectrum
> is used by the US military. In another case, simply listening to some
> radio channels is restricted, as you can not legally listen to police
> channels in a car.

Actually, it's the laws of the state of Indiana that make it illegal
to listen to a police scanner under certain circumstances, not the FCC
rules. Most US states do not have this type of restriction on police
scanners in cars. To get technical about it, it's a misdemeanor in
Indiana to possess a device capable of receiving law enforcement
frequencies that is capable of being used in a vehicle or as a
pedestrian; an actual vehicle is not required! Nor is having the
police channels programmed into the scanner required in order to be in
violation of the law. Not that they will tell you this if you go to
buy a scanner at Radio Shack. Most police officers don't know this
either.

There are exceptions to this of course. Amateur radio operators are
exempt from this law, for example, which is why I can legally have a
radio in my car that can receive police frequencies, so long as I'm
not committing some other crime.

Here's an interesting question though: I have a scanner at home that I
stream to the web. If someone else is listening to my feed in their
car on their Android phone over wifi, are they in violation of the
law? Nobody really knows for sure.

There are federal laws making it illegal to monitor certain
communications, such as cell phones, pagers, and encrypted stuff, but
police frequencies are not listed as restricted among the federal
regulations.

If anyone is really bored, the Indiana code regarding possession of a
police radio is IC 35-44-3-12.

Kevin
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Re: [BLUG] iPhone and Android (was: opera unite)

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:11:07AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some
> fashion, but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial
> program may do damage to their phone? Or maybe I should get an android
> phone and support the competition. . .

If you ignore the "security" issue that people float around, there
is also one very good reason for Apple to not do that: Market Share.
Right now, they can have offical Apple-produced applications and stop
third-party applications in those fields from the get-go.

And truthfully, unoffical leaks of how to unlock your iPhone *is*
Apple's way of allowing 3rd party applications while also stating it is
an unofficial program that may do damage to their phone, and that by
simply preparing to install it you are voiding the warranty.

Truthfully, the Android platform isn't all that open. It has an open
development environment, but it isn't open in the sense that you can't
replace any product that ships with it with a third-party product. You
can not, in any real sense, "use the product how you see fit." This is
less a matter of security than it is a matter that the US government
controls the airways.

And the US government *does* control the airways. In particular the FCC.
In the common case, the standard Internet wireless protocols can use
additional channels outside of the US. In the US, some of the spectrum
is used by the US military. In another case, simply listening to some
radio channels is restricted, as you can not legally listen to police
channels in a car.

Now, imagine a person has a simple phone-sized device that can
truthfully freely access the airways. Police channels via your bluetooth
headset? Some cell phones actually include AM/FM radios. It isn't that
far-fetched. Ignoring the military frequencies, you also have purposes
for such a device which could include simple cell phone jamming. If
anyone could have an easy hand-held cell phone jammer then not only
would it be common for folks to have them in movie theaters, but
virtually any criminal worth their salt would have one.

This is why I'm actually headed toward getting an open
mobile-internet-device connected via bluetooth to a closed-platform cell
phone.

I want a fully open hand-held device, but it does not have to be the
same device that uses the cell-phone network, and I do not require my
wireless device's firmware to be open.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] opera unite

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Ben Shewmaker<ben@shewbox.org> wrote:
> Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some fashion,
> but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial program may do
> damage to their phone?  Or maybe I should get an android phone and support
> the competition. . .

They're as likely to do that as they are of letting you know all the
other convenient places you can get music for your iPod.

I seriously doubt Apple's main motivation in locking down *any* of
their devices is the welfare and security of their end-users.

And yeah, my protest plan in this democratish capitalistish society is
to buy an Android phone. We're waiting to see what handsets come out
over the summer, but both my wife and I are pretty well decided on
Android as an interface.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Mac owner

Hey! I resemble that remark!

The minis are sweet little machines! Sleek, lovely, functional.

A heavily groomed little prancing show-dog.

Rather than the highly variable, hard-working, "I can do anything"
border collie that a Linux computer is...

Ana

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Mark Krenz<mark@slugbug.org> wrote:
>
>  Yesterday I bought a Mac Mini
>
>  *ducks*  (quack!)
>
>  Seriously though, I've never owned any Apple computer before. I've
> used them of course, but I think owning one will be interesting. No,
> its not for my own desktop, its for Suso so that we can support Mac
> users better and we also decided to use it for our conference room
> computer.
>
>  Anyways, its already been interesting to experience computers again in
> a different way. The Mac is like a little box of happiness and to make
> you a happy computer user.  While Linux may make you a happy computer
> user, the drive is different and the happiness comes for different
> reasons. Like meditating, you can't see the happiness from the outside.
> With the Mac, its like looking at a glowing orb.
>
> --
> Mark Krenz
> Bloomington Linux Users Group
> http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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[BLUG] Mac owner

Yesterday I bought a Mac Mini

*ducks* (quack!)

Seriously though, I've never owned any Apple computer before. I've
used them of course, but I think owning one will be interesting. No,
its not for my own desktop, its for Suso so that we can support Mac
users better and we also decided to use it for our conference room
computer.

Anyways, its already been interesting to experience computers again in
a different way. The Mac is like a little box of happiness and to make
you a happy computer user. While Linux may make you a happy computer
user, the drive is different and the happiness comes for different
reasons. Like meditating, you can't see the happiness from the outside.
With the Mac, its like looking at a glowing orb.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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BLUG mailing list
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Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> I can see where, especially on a phone, a more closed system is much
> better for security. Perhaps what I really dislike are phone companies
> and cell phone plans in general. Much to the chagrin of all of my
> friends, I still don't have texting enabled on my phone. I just can't
> see a reason to pay extra money per month to send text messages. I
> don't have a data plan either, but what gets me is that you can purchase
> a data plan, but you also must purchase a texting plan separately. Cell
> phones really seem to heading towards always net connected hand held
> devices that happen to do traditional voice calls. I would love to have
> my ipod touch be able to be net connected like an iphone, but without a
> 2 year contract and only a data plan. I can purchase a phone plan to
> have a phone, but I really don't mind having a seperate device for
> everything else. A device that can be more open if I choose that isn't
> as critical security wise as a traditional cell phone. I'm sure I'm in
> the minority here, but I wish there were more choices all around.
>
> Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some
> fashion, but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial
> program may do damage to their phone? Or maybe I should get an android
> phone and support the competition. . .
>

There are all sorts of third party applications that are available from
the iTunes app store. Do you mean third party apps from sources other
than the app store?

I hear you on your dislike of phone companies and cell phone plans, I'm
not big on them myself.


> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net
> <mailto:markwarner1954@att.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Auty wrote:
>
> If it has taken years for the public to instill some generally
> secure computing practices on Joe sixpack,
>
>
> When did that happen? IMO, the only things that have changed in
> recent years are the ISPs pushing out anti-malware apps at little or
> no cost (replacing the four year old Norton and McAfee trial version
> installs that came with the eMachine from Wal*Mart), Microsoft
> pushing out its Malicious Software Removal Tool on the second
> Tuesday of every month, and SP3 setting Windows updates to the
> defaults. Joe Sixpack remains clueless from a security standpoint.
>
>
> I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact
> that people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all
> suffer. Sorry to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate
> here :)
>
>
> People view their computers like appliances or cars. They might know
> how to operate them, but they have no idea how they work. When cars
> act up they take them to a mechanic. It's rare anymore that an owner
> even changes his own oil. With most appliances, when they break,
> they're pitched. And with computers, they holler at guys like me.
> I'm a lowly computer mechanic. Not very glamorous, but I perform a
> needed service at a fair price -- just like the local greasemonkey.
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> MEPIS Linux
> Registered Linux User #415318
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com <mailto:BLUG@linuxfan.com>
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug


--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

I can see where, especially on a phone, a more closed system is much better for security.  Perhaps what I really dislike are phone companies and cell phone plans in general.  Much to the chagrin of all of my friends, I still don't have texting enabled on my phone.  I just can't see a reason to pay extra money per month to send text messages.  I don't have a data plan either, but what gets me is that you can purchase a data plan, but you also must purchase a texting plan separately.  Cell phones really seem to heading towards always net connected hand held devices that happen to do traditional voice calls.  I would love to have my ipod touch be able to be net connected like an iphone, but without a 2 year contract and only a data plan.  I can purchase a phone plan to have a phone, but I really don't mind having a seperate device for everything else.  A device that can be more open if I choose that isn't as critical security wise as a traditional cell phone.  I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I wish there were more choices all around. 

Also, if they wanted, couldn't Apple allow 3rd party apps in some fashion, but where it warns the user that installing an unofficial program may do damage to their phone?  Or maybe I should get an android phone and support the competition. . .

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:48 AM, Mark Warner <markwarner1954@att.net> wrote:


Joe Auty wrote:

If it has taken years for the public to instill some generally secure computing practices on Joe sixpack,

When did that happen? IMO, the only things that have changed in recent years are the ISPs pushing out anti-malware apps at little or no cost (replacing the four year old Norton and McAfee trial version installs that came with the eMachine from Wal*Mart), Microsoft pushing out its Malicious Software Removal Tool on the second Tuesday of every month, and SP3 setting Windows updates to the defaults. Joe Sixpack remains clueless from a security standpoint.


I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact that people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all suffer. Sorry to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate here :)

People view their computers like appliances or cars. They might know how to operate them, but they have no idea how they work. When cars act up they take them to a mechanic. It's rare anymore that an owner even changes his own oil. With most appliances, when they break, they're pitched. And with computers, they holler at guys like me. I'm a lowly computer mechanic. Not very glamorous, but I perform a needed service at a fair price -- just like the local greasemonkey.

--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318




_______________________________________________
BLUG mailing list
BLUG@linuxfan.com
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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Joe Auty wrote:

> If it has taken years for the public to instill some
> generally secure computing practices on Joe sixpack,

When did that happen? IMO, the only things that have changed in recent
years are the ISPs pushing out anti-malware apps at little or no cost
(replacing the four year old Norton and McAfee trial version installs
that came with the eMachine from Wal*Mart), Microsoft pushing out its
Malicious Software Removal Tool on the second Tuesday of every month,
and SP3 setting Windows updates to the defaults. Joe Sixpack remains
clueless from a security standpoint.

> I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact that
> people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all suffer. Sorry
> to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate here :)

People view their computers like appliances or cars. They might know how
to operate them, but they have no idea how they work. When cars act up
they take them to a mechanic. It's rare anymore that an owner even
changes his own oil. With most appliances, when they break, they're
pitched. And with computers, they holler at guys like me. I'm a lowly
computer mechanic. Not very glamorous, but I perform a needed service at
a fair price -- just like the local greasemonkey.

--
Mark Warner
MEPIS Linux
Registered Linux User #415318

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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

I'm a little torn on whether or not a phone should be completely open...

Any developer knows that if you give your users a gun they will find a
way to shoot themselves with it. If users could install their own phone
apps from any source, this would eventually open the floodgates to a
whole new generation of Spyware, and other invasive and problematic crap
software. There are already ways to install spy software on certain
phones, as I understand it.

Then, we'd get into lawsuits (and phone bills that threaten bankruptcy)
and all sorts of privacy related problems, support issues, and other
assorted headaches. If it has taken years for the public to instill some
generally secure computing practices on Joe sixpack, it will take an
eternity to teach Joe sixpack how to do whatever they need to do to make
sure that their phone conversations they think are private are actually
secure. We have gone through generations of people that have grown used
to the reality/illusion of phone conversations being private. This
doesn't even touch on bandwidth and metered usage related issues.

So yes, for us it would be wonderful if the iPhone were open this way,
but in reality I think it is smart of Apple to protect users from
themselves, and smart Apple to cover their own asses - I can't fault
them for that. Whether or not it is cool of Apple to dictate what apps
get carried in their iPhone app store is a whole other story I guess,
but forcing users to go to their store at least prevents people from
downloading apps from some dude's Geocities page or from Russia or
something.

I think that unfortunately this is simply a product of the fact that
people are generally morons, and as a consequence we all suffer. Sorry
to be so dark sounding, but it seems appropriate here :)


Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> Thanks for the good info. It's always easy to get carried away with
> hype. People are developing new ways to connect people to share
> information, be it personal photos, videos, business info, what have
> you, but the technologies that, at least to me, seem the most promising
> or exciting are those that are more open. That's the one big gripe I
> have about the iphone. I have an ipod touch, not an iphone, and it's a
> sweet little piece of hardware with some really creative apps. I
> unlocked my touch, but it was far from easy and Apple is far, far from
> encouraging people to experiment with their system in wasy contrary to
> theirs. Plus I hate iTunes. Big, bloated, yucky piece of software I'm
> supposed to use to 'sync' it with my computer. But I digress. . . .
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu
> <mailto:blacks@indiana.edu>> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 01:11:41AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> > There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite. Haven't
> > tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?
> > Looks cool anyways. .
>
> It looks pretty crappy once you realize how it works.
>
> * http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/17/opera-unite
> * http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/16/thoughts-on-opera-unite/
>
> You get a super-crappy URL (which I consider a nonissue for most), and
> all your content is fed through Opera's centralized Unite proxies (big
> issue when the whole point of the thing is supposed to go decentralized
> -- it isn't at *all* decentralized). As an added bonus, they reserve
> the right to block and/all content as they see fit, and redirect pages
> to other pages. They're not freeing things for the people, they're just
> asking to be our new masters.
>
> All the excitement appears to just be folks regirgitating Opera's press
> releases.
>
>
> I think it is much more exciting to know that Google's Wave application
> has a public protocol site ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/ ) and that
> their goals for it are broader than simply another Google App.
>
> As simply another Google App it falls in to the "ultimately lame due to
> proprietary nature". Things get a whole lot different if there are open
> protocols, and random folks can have their own Wave servers. (Things
> are best if said wave servers are open-source, but with open protocols
> things can be rewritten.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu <mailto:blacks@indiana.edu>> /
> KeyID: 8596FA8E
> Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFKOSnp3nFUM4WW+o4RArc5AJ9pNY8QKItOGtfePVAyCAHC1qPe+wCeJCyy
> RWUZRqI6Z4wiCtRpZzZvOGs=
> =2fbm
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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>
>
>
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--
Joe Auty
NetMusician: web publishing software for musicians
http://www.netmusician.org
joe@netmusician.org
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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

Thanks for the good info.  It's always easy to get carried away with hype.  People are developing new ways to connect people to share information, be it personal photos, videos, business info, what have you, but the technologies that, at least to me, seem the most promising or exciting are those that are more open.  That's the one big gripe I have about the iphone.  I have an ipod touch, not an iphone, and it's a sweet little piece of hardware with some really creative apps.  I unlocked my touch, but it was far from easy and Apple is far, far from encouraging people to experiment with their system in wasy contrary to theirs.  Plus I hate iTunes.  Big, bloated, yucky piece of software I'm supposed to use to 'sync' it with my computer.  But I digress. . . .

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 01:11:41AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite. Haven't
> tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?
> Looks cool anyways. .

It looks pretty crappy once you realize how it works.

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/17/opera-unite
* http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/16/thoughts-on-opera-unite/

You get a super-crappy URL (which I consider a nonissue for most), and
all your content is fed through Opera's centralized Unite proxies (big
issue when the whole point of the thing is supposed to go decentralized
-- it isn't at *all* decentralized). As an added bonus, they reserve
the right to block and/all content as they see fit, and redirect pages
to other pages. They're not freeing things for the people, they're just
asking to be our new masters.

All the excitement appears to just be folks regirgitating Opera's press
releases.


I think it is much more exciting to know that Google's Wave application
has a public protocol site ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/ ) and that
their goals for it are broader than simply another Google App.

As simply another Google App it falls in to the "ultimately lame due to
proprietary nature". Things get a whole lot different if there are open
protocols, and random folks can have their own Wave servers. (Things
are best if said wave servers are open-source, but with open protocols
things can be rewritten.)

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07  78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E


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Re: [BLUG] opera unite

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 01:11:41AM +0900, Ben Shewmaker wrote:
> There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite. Haven't
> tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?
> Looks cool anyways. .

It looks pretty crappy once you realize how it works.

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/17/opera-unite
* http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/06/16/thoughts-on-opera-unite/

You get a super-crappy URL (which I consider a nonissue for most), and
all your content is fed through Opera's centralized Unite proxies (big
issue when the whole point of the thing is supposed to go decentralized
-- it isn't at *all* decentralized). As an added bonus, they reserve
the right to block and/all content as they see fit, and redirect pages
to other pages. They're not freeing things for the people, they're just
asking to be our new masters.

All the excitement appears to just be folks regirgitating Opera's press
releases.


I think it is much more exciting to know that Google's Wave application
has a public protocol site ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/ ) and that
their goals for it are broader than simply another Google App.

As simply another Google App it falls in to the "ultimately lame due to
proprietary nature". Things get a whole lot different if there are open
protocols, and random folks can have their own Wave servers. (Things
are best if said wave servers are open-source, but with open protocols
things can be rewritten.)

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

[BLUG] opera unite

There seems to be some excitement over the new Opera Unite.  Haven't tried it yet myself, wondering if anybody else has played with it?  Looks cool anyways. .


Ben

Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:48:19AM -0400, Michael Schultheiss wrote:
> Mark Krenz wrote:
> > What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> > are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> > wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?
>
> I use TurboTax.com - it works in almost any browser and doesn't seem to
> care about the OS.

The H&R Block site also works without problems. I've used both in the
past.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:55:50PM +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:58:09AM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
> >
> > As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
> > a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
> > look at Ekiga as well.
>
> Just for fun I checked out if TurboTax runs in Wine, I guess not as it
> has a garbage rating because the installer crashes. Apparently the
> software has some DRM in it that puts some signature on the hard drive's
> starting sectors. BAD! BAD! BAD!

I didn't think anyone tried to do stuff like that anymore. Good gods!

> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?

I've been using web-based taxes for years now. It's been working in
Linux since ~2002 when I started doing it.

Cheers,

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

Re: [BLUG] Skype

Mark Krenz wrote:
> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?

I use TurboTax.com - it works in almost any browser and doesn't seem to
care about the OS.
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, Mark Krenz wrote:

> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and
> there are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop
> users), wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a
> Linux version?

Those of us with fixed and relatively simple incomes find
it easier just to pay H&R Block -- and have no sensitive data on
our home machines. (I have just buggered two out of eight up
royally in process of installing Fedora 11; granted they were
expendable, but I'm not inspired with confidence.)

--
Beartooth Implacable, Curmudgeonly Codger Learning Linux
On the Internet, you can never tell who is a dog --
supposing you care -- but you can tell who has a mind.
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Barry Schatz<sorbetninja@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a Windows guest in VirtualBox for things like TurboTax. I've
> heard that turbotax.com will work for Linux users with Firefox, but I
> just don't feel comfortable doing my taxes via website yet.
>
> -Barry

That's how we do ours in my household.

Haven't had any issues with it so far.

Simón

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Re: [BLUG] Skype

Mark Krenz wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:58:09AM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
>
>> As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
>> a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
>> look at Ekiga as well.
>>
>
> Just for fun I checked out if TurboTax runs in Wine, I guess not as it
> has a garbage rating because the installer crashes. Apparently the
> software has some DRM in it that puts some signature on the hard drive's
> starting sectors. BAD! BAD! BAD!
>
> What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
> are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
> wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?
>
> I guess TaxAct is an alternative that works in wine to some degree.
>
I have a Windows guest in VirtualBox for things like TurboTax. I've
heard that turbotax.com will work for Linux users with Firefox, but I
just don't feel comfortable doing my taxes via website yet.

-Barry
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:58:09AM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
>
> As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
> a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
> look at Ekiga as well.

Just for fun I checked out if TurboTax runs in Wine, I guess not as it
has a garbage rating because the installer crashes. Apparently the
software has some DRM in it that puts some signature on the hard drive's
starting sectors. BAD! BAD! BAD!

What I don't get is, if everyone needs to do their taxes, and there
are 30 million Linux users (maybe 1 million+ U.S. desktop users),
wouldn't that be a significant enough market to make a Linux version?

I guess TaxAct is an alternative that works in wine to some degree.

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

Steven Black wrote:
> You should be fairly flexible with regards to the headset. The USB
> headsets work well in either OS.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my query about Skype.

As I usually fire up XP about once a year to run TurboTax, I'll pick up
a headset and give Skype on Linux a try first. I'll also be having a
look at Ekiga as well.

Again, thanks for the suggestions. Much appreciated.

Ron
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Saturday, June 13, 2009

Re: [BLUG] looking for an open source dropbox-like app

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Ben Shewmaker<ben@shewbox.org> wrote:
> I've been looking for backup/sync software recently and while I do like
> services like Dropbox, as I have my own website with server space, I'd love
> to have open source implementation.  Maybe it's just me, but the one thing I

[snip]

I use Dropbox for what I consider to be "non-private" files, e.g.
those that wouldn't cause me to panic if an evil h4x0r broke into
their servers.

I use a client called Jungle Disk as well. It uses Amazon S3 for the
actual storage, but it has the ability to allow you to create your own
encryption key. These files are encrypted before being sent to the
servers for storage. Jungle Disk also isn't as straightforward as
Dropbox, though.

>From their web page:

"To further re-enforce the idea that you are in control of your data,
we have made available open source code that can be used to browse and
download your data without even using Jungle Disk."

The client itself isn't open-source, but at least if they go south you
can still get to your data (it's stored on S3, after all).

--
Jeremy L. Gaddis
http://evilrouters.net/

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[BLUG] looking for an open source dropbox-like app

I've been looking for backup/sync software recently and while I do like services like Dropbox, as I have my own website with server space, I'd love to have open source implementation.  Maybe it's just me, but the one thing I don't like about these pay services is that I don't have complete control over the files I am syncing to their servers.  And since I am already paying a monthly fee for web hosting and I get plenty of hard drive space, why not set up my own service where I have more space and control?  So checking to see if anybody here knew of anything like dropbox for keeping files in sync. 

Ben

Friday, June 12, 2009

Re: [BLUG] Skype

We haven't tried USB headsets or anything, we just use a standard plug headset. However, we have been using Skype in Linux since about Ubuntu 7.04, and have had no problems. Our older laptop is presently running Ubuntu 8.04 and my wife talks over Skype on it all the time. My laptop has Ubuntu 9.04 and Skype works beautifully as well. We use Logitec webcams. Skype has in fact been overall fairly stable in Linux.

Matthew

Re: [BLUG] Skype

You should be fairly flexible with regards to the headset. The USB
headsets work well in either OS.

Even the genuine Microsoft USB headset works in Linux. The only thing
that doesn't work out-of-the-box was the cord-inline volume control.
(It controls the system volume, which isn't as useful when what I'm
listening to has been redirected to the headset.)

I know Skype in Linux is, according the boards, a buggy POS. Last I
heard, it used OSS to access the audio. (Yes, even recently.) It grabs
the audio in-whole, and it doesn't want to share with other apps. Now,
this could work if you can get Skype to grab the USB headset.

I'm thinking you're looking in to it as you know people that use it.
If that isn't the reason, you may want to check out free alternatives.
Specifically, Ekiga has both Linux and Windows clients, it is
open-source (Skype is free-for-now and closed-source), and uses the
standard protocol SIP.

* http://www.ekiga.org/ - the main site
* https://www.ekiga.net/ - the free SIP-Address site

On a side note, USB headsets work better in KDE than they do in Windows.
I'm listening to music or a podcast on the laptop speakers, and plug
in the USB headset. The audio switches to the headset without any
interruption. (In Windows I need to restart Windows Media Player to get
the USB headset used.)

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E


On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 01:26:52PM +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
>
> I've used Skype with just a standard Logitec webcam and it worked ok.
> Actually, I was able to use the skype branded logitec webcam too (~$24).
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 01:24:19PM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
> > I want to try Skype and wonder whether anyone out there might have some
> > experience based hardware recommendations - phone/headset for Windoze XP
> > and headset for Linux.
> >
> > Advice and suggestions much appreciated.
> >
> > Ron

Re: [BLUG] Skype

Oh wow, video works on Skype for Linux now?? Yes, David, and
apparently since late 2007:

http://share.skype.com/sites/linux/2007/11/skype_20_beta_for_linux_with_video.html

This is great... um... news! :) One more strike against having
Windows running on my laptop!

Anyway, being married to a transnational, I've become quite familiar
with skype, and other than its unwillingness to play well with others,
I like it a lot.

Having just found out that there was video for skype for linux, I
can't recommend a webcam. But as for audio, I'd start by just getting
a decent desktop mic and using it "speaker phone" style. Skype (like
all of its competitors that I've seen) does a good job of maintaining
general audio quality while avoiding feedback, and one of my favorite
things about it is not having to hold anything up to my ear.

But, if you want a headset, just go for whatever looks good. It's
just plain old audio, so same rules apply. If you want something you
can walk around your house with, I don't have any advice, but I'm sure
there are products like that.

David


On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 01:26:52PM +0000, Mark Krenz wrote:
>
> I've used Skype with just a standard Logitec webcam and it worked ok.
>Actually, I was able to use the skype branded logitec webcam too (~$24).
>
>
>On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 01:24:19PM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
>> I want to try Skype and wonder whether anyone out there might have some
>> experience based hardware recommendations - phone/headset for Windoze XP
>> and headset for Linux.
>>
>> Advice and suggestions much appreciated.
>>
>> Ron
>> _______________________________________________
>> BLUG mailing list
>> BLUG@linuxfan.com
>> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>>
>
>--
>Mark Krenz
>Bloomington Linux Users Group
>http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
>_______________________________________________
>BLUG mailing list
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Re: [BLUG] Skype

I've used Skype with just a standard Logitec webcam and it worked ok.
Actually, I was able to use the skype branded logitec webcam too (~$24).


On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 01:24:19PM GMT, Ronald Odle [ronodle@kiva.net] said the following:
> I want to try Skype and wonder whether anyone out there might have some
> experience based hardware recommendations - phone/headset for Windoze XP
> and headset for Linux.
>
> Advice and suggestions much appreciated.
>
> Ron
> _______________________________________________
> BLUG mailing list
> BLUG@linuxfan.com
> http://mailman.cs.indiana.edu/mailman/listinfo/blug
>

--
Mark Krenz
Bloomington Linux Users Group
http://www.bloomingtonlinux.org/
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[BLUG] Skype

I want to try Skype and wonder whether anyone out there might have some
experience based hardware recommendations - phone/headset for Windoze XP
and headset for Linux.

Advice and suggestions much appreciated.

Ron
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[BLUG] for sale or trade

Hey everybody,

Sorry to stuff everybody's inbox with a for-sale listing, but I'm looking to get a laptop again (it was in my car when it was stolen in Miami) and so I'm selling my desktop and a few parts.  It's a Dell that I've upgraded a bit, and I want to get rid of the computer plus all the xtra parts I have with it.  If anyone has a used laptop they'd be willing to trade for it as well, I'm open to that.  I'm not looking for anything fancy, just something sturdy and portable.  Specs:

Intel Core2 Quad 2.4ghz
4gb ram
1tb hd
Original Dell powersupply not installed, and the current 600W cooler master power supply (which was required for the vid card upgrade)
HIS Radeon HD 4870 with 1gig video memory (pci-e)
also have two pci-e vid cards, one a gforce 5200fx, and the other a gforce 6800
some sort of creative x-fi sound blaster (don't remember the exact model, one of the mp3+ or music+ or whatever marketing name came along with it)
dual layer dvd burner
also have an extra 4 gigs of ram that I had swapped out for better quality ram.  2 sticks of 1gig each was the original memeory that came with it, and also 2 1 gig sticks from a crucial.com upgrade

I'd love to just get rid of this in one fell swoop, so if anybody wants to make a deal. . .

http://photos.shewbox.org/forsale/


thanks everybody!

Ben

Monday, June 8, 2009

[BLUG] Sweden's Pirate Party has won a seat in the European Parliament (fwd)

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8089102.stm
>
> "The group - which campaigned on reformation of copyright and patent law
> - secured 7.1% of the Swedish vote.
>
> The result puts the Pirate Party in fifth place, behind the Social
> Democrats, Greens, Liberals and the Moderate Party.
>
> Rickard Falkvinge, the party leader, told the BBC the win was "gigantic"
> and that they were now negotiating with four different EU Parliamentary
> groups.
>
> "Last night, we gained political credibility," said Mr Falkvinge.
>
> "People were not taken in by the establishment and we got political
> trust from the citizens."
>
> The profile of the Pirate Party and issues surrounding copyright law
> have dominated headlines in Sweden over the past few months.
>
> In April, a court in Sweden sentenced the four men behind The Pirate
> Bay, the world's most high-profile file-sharing website, to a year in
> jail and ordered them to pay $4.5m (?ffff?ffff3m) in damages."

--
Beartooth Staffwright, PhD, Neo-Redneck Linux Convert
Remember I know precious little of what I am talking about.


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Re: [BLUG] Debian PowerPC dicsc

I really thought you could also jigdo from any Debian-derived Linux
for any platform. The trick is that normally it defaults to your local
source mirror (from /etc/apt/sources.list), and you need it to do things
slightly differently when using another architecture.

This is what I would have offered to do, had you not found a solution.

The jigdo-lite stuff is amazingly simple for being so delightfully
useful. I think it'll basically work on any platform that has the
dependancies met.

Cheers,
Steven

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 01:17:44PM -0400, Kirk Gleason wrote:
> Actually I found the OS X jidgo stuff (google works better when
> things are spelled correctly -- when is someone going to develop
> an intent-based search engine anyhow? ;-), and the jigdo stuff is
> processing happily. Still no idea how long it will really take,
> but ...
>
> I was just figuring I would grab the small CD and get rolling today,
> and get my week started out with some debian PPC awesomeness.
>
> Thanks for the offer though!
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Barry Schatz <sorbetninja@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't mind leaving a download for 3 hours. I also live a block from
> the dsl central office. If you want, I can download it and then send it
> to you.
>
> -Barry
>
> Kirk Gleason wrote:
> > All,
> > Couple of questions:
> >
> > 1. Does anyone have a any debian PowerPC isos about? Something recent
> > would be awesome but by no means necessary.
> > 2. Does anyone know of a way to make jigdo work in OS X?
> >
> > It would appear that the debian PPC isos are not hosted on most of the
> > mirrors (or at least the ones that I have tried). I have found a
> > couple (from sweden I think), but it is gonna take me over 3 hours to
> > download the "business card" CD -- 67MB large it is. I tried a torrent
> > for a couple of of the isos as well, and no seeds for the PPC stuff.
> >
> > --
> > Kirk Gleason


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Re: [BLUG] Apt-get vs Aptitude

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 10:43:42AM -0400, Mark Warner wrote:
> It appears that with Lenny, Synaptic is being deprecated in favor of
> Aptitude. However, my distro of choice (the Lenny based MEPIS 8) still
> defaults to Synaptic. I also understand that mixing the two can
> conceivably cause problems. So for now I'm gonna stick with ol'
> reliable. Old dog != new tricks

If Synaptic is being depricated, expect some other GUI-based tool to be
in the pipeline. The GUI tools seem to have a shorter life-span than the
ncurses tools.

I wouldn't expect the niche (GNOME-based Package Management) to remain
unfilled. It may be a matter of abandonment by the developer. In such
cases, depending on the source of the original, folks sometimes find it
easier to write a new tool than to try to maintain the old one.

(Though in GNOME it seems fairly common for a product to remain at 0.9
until they do a complete rewrite and have a *different* product that
gets no further than version 0.9... I saw someone ranting about it the
other day, but I forget the apps in question. New apps are always sexier
than maintaining old apps.)

--
Steven Black <blacks@indiana.edu> / KeyID: 8596FA8E
Fingerprint: 108C 089C EFA4 832C BF07 78C2 DE71 5433 8596 FA8E

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